Doorians - Genetic setup, new lineart

[Zephyr]

I'd originally discussed re-starting these guys >>http://www.secundi.net/forum.php?topic=1991.0<<

I've since started them on PI, but have yet to get them started here. That's kinda a good thing, since I got to make all the mistakes on PI, so I sort of know what I'm doing here? XD   *hides under rock*

The problem is, I do NOT know how to - to write a genetic code. I see people listing strings of gentic code for this adoptable or that, but I don't understand it at all. And I really want genetics to factor into breeding Doorians, and that's what I need help with.

Just for example, the farallon - what does "uu Ff Ss** tt Ee Hh" mean? T_T

I'm not as worried about genetics for markings, but I'd like to sort dominant traits and recessive traits, and which traits sort of just blend with others? >_<  And then find a way to mark down - in a string of letters - for tracking genetics in a tidy spreadsheet. :X

Each species of Doorians has three 'starter' breeds with distinct traits. By selectively interbreeding the three breeds (Zephling, Darkling, and Feyling), people have a chance to develop new breeds. When someone successfully breeds three generations with the same genetic code, they can submit it as a new breed, and it'll get its own lineart! I think that's pretty cool, m'self :3

So far I only have felines done - >_< Hopefully no one will hate me for that, since there are several cat adoptables here on Secundi already!  I have the equines inked (and yes, I know, there are *also* several popular equine adoptables here already!), and half shaded, so I'm hoping to get them all done before a big launch on Secundi :3

Here are samples of the 'starter' feline breeds:

Zephling
   

Darkling
   

Feyling
   

Genetics would include things like tail length, fur/coat length, ear shape, body shape, head shape, eye shape, and wing type.

If someone would help me figure out a genetic code thing to use for my own sanity, I would lovingly offer a natural-colored custom to you. If you're willing to set up a spreadsheet for me to keep TRACK of each one's genetics, I might even be willing to offer a custom-posed :3

So yea, let me know here, or shoot me a pm, I'll be here checking in, but I'm working on the Feyling and Darling Equines :3

[Ryuukokoro]

Aww I loved the old Doorians, such cute little people! ;_;

But those little winged kitties are gorgeous too! Sorry I can't help you with genetics. But will definitely follow when they're ready!

[Zephyr]

No worries, Ryuu, the people are still Doorians! I love them too much to drop them, though over on PI, the animals have proven more popular than the people T_T

I know several adoptable let people register for a 'shop' that lets them breed more often, or have larger litters, or sell to other users outside a trading season. I don't like having to keep track of registering shops and whatnot - I am disorganised despite my best efforts!

So in Greenglassia, all you need to sell Doorians is have a human Doorian of your own. Because money and ownership is such a human concept, eye? then folks can just check to see if someone has a human to know if they're really ok to sell. :3  but humans won't have the same elaborate breeding system I hope the animals will have.

[jojo]

I will try to explain how genetics basically work, hopefully my explanation makes sense XD

Here's a (very short) sample genetic string:

Bb LL

Each pair of letters is a genetic trait. So, for example, the section "Bb" describes the pet's genetic trait for Color, and the "LL" section describes the pet's genetic trait for Hair Length.

Each pair of letters is a pair because the pet gets one half of the gene for that trait from the mother, and one half from the father. So this particular pet might have gotten "B" from their father, and "b" from their mother (or the other way around). Make sense?

Okay, now, the ACTUAL letters that the pet has for that pair determines what the trait looks like. Usually, capital letters means the gene is dominant (it covers any recessive genes) and lowercase letters means the gene is recessive.

Suppose the possible letters for the Color trait are "B" = Brown and "b" = Black. The above pet has "Bb" for its color trait. This means that it has a Brown dominant gene and a Black recessive gene. Since Brown is dominant, the pet will look brown, even though it's carrying a black gene (so it may possibly pass this gene to its offspring).

If the pet had "BB" for its color trait, the pet has two Brown dominant genes, so the pet looks brown.

If the pet had "bb" for its color trait, this means the pet has two Black recessive genes. Since there's no dominant gene to cover up the black genes, the pet will look black.

Um, I think that basically covers it X3;; I hope that made sense!

By the way I LOVE the winged kitties!!! I actually had an idea that was very similar to this adoptable (I called them the Flura, with two different breeds where one was Siamese looking with a "darker" feel) but I never started on them and I LOVE how these look anyway!

[Zephyr]

What does the asterisk (*) mean?

What happens if you have two different dominant genes passed on, do they mix? And the same for two recessive?

I guess I'd randomly assign letters for traits? :X


Don't suppose you have AIM or anything? It might take a while for me to work something out >_<

[Ravvana]

What does the asterisk (*) mean?

What happens if you have two different dominant genes passed on, do they mix? And the same for two recessive?

I guess I'd randomly assign letters for traits? :X


Don't suppose you have AIM or anything? It might take a while for me to work something out >_<

No idea on the asterisk. That isn't a norm (I don't think). I code Stable horses with just a string of letters: ie Ee Aa cc dd gg ww ll NN tt oo PP ff Zz BB

Each pairing refers to a different trait. So for instance, "Ee" refers to the base coat (red or black). "Aa" modifies the base coat, if it is black (red is always red). "cc" would make the horse's coloring creamy if it was CC or Cc. And so on.

So basically, no problem if there are multiple dominants or recessives. Here's for your adoptable:

tail length = TT (TT means long, Tt medium, tt short)
fur/coat length = CC (CC means long, Cc medium, cc short)
ear shape = EE
body shape = BB
head shape = HH
eye shape = YY
wing type = WW

For the later five, coding would depend on the different ear/eye/etc options. So if pointed ears were dominant and round ears were recessive, EE and Ee would be pointed, and ee would be round. Alternatively, if you have three ear types (round, pointed, flat - or something), EE, Ee, and ee would each be one of those types. However, while two EE (say pointed) cats will always give birth to an EE/pointed kitten (same with ee/round parents -- always ee kitten), two Ee cats would have 50% Ee (flat), 25% EE, 25% ee. Since each parent randomly gives ONE of their two letter from each trait (coat length, ear type, etc).

It's late, so that probably makes little sense XD I can help more tomorrow, though

[toffeeca]

I'll try to help if I can. I don't follow farallon, but I would guess that the asterisk would be the same for them as it would be for quin and thestable. It means that the gene is unknown. So for the quin and the stable, overo is coded as Oo or oo, you either have over or you do not. But there are different types of overo, frame (coded as PP), sabino (coded as Pp) and splash (coded as pp). So if your horse did not show overo, you would not know what type of overo was coded (because the genes are still present even if it does not show) so the code might read oo (**) because the second part is unknown.

In most cases there is only one dominant gene. I don't know about the farallon, but there is always one most dominant gene if there is more than two dominant genes. So for thestable, a horse can be bay (A), brown (At) or black (a). They can be any combination of the three in pairs. So a single pet can only ever have two genes for a given spot. So AA, AAt Aa is bay because bay is the most dominant so it covers the brown or black gene. AtAt and Ata are brown, because brown is dominant over black. And aa is black, because it is the most recessive.

You could randomly assign them if you want, or you could base them on the gene that they represent. "O" is the representation for overo, which makes sense. But "Z" is the representation for silver dapples.

Hopefully that helps a little. I also love the kitties and want many of the Siamese ones

[Zephyr]

Ravvana - What if there are more than two modifiers? like TT = Long tail, tt = short tail, but if Tt = short tail, it implies middle length is gotten by breeding a shorttail with a long tail...but if long tail is dominant, then wouldn't Tt still express as long?

*rips out hair*

And while I can see long tail and short tail = medium tail in that case, for other traits I would see three distinct modifiers - wings being the most extreme. There's fey, Zeph, and Dark wing types - three distinct genes, and none is a combination of the other two.

So, for example, saying one type of wing is Ww - a mixture of WW and ww - wouldn't make sense? >_<



Toffeeca - I think horse genetics are a little different, since they have a very limited set of colors, and then modifiers - like grey or cream or dilutes or whatever.

Then you said, one dominant gene - and then in the next, 'most dominant'. Aren't there some genes that mix?


T_T  Genetics make me sad


...on a happy note, i finished shading the adult feyling equines. What do you think? They're the smallest breed of equine, all roly-poly and shaggy!  I'm in love with them :3

   

[Laviee]

Fnnnnn;; I love the equines! *u*;;

[YourLoveOnly]

The Equines are cute!

I am still really really hoping the humans become a bigger part of the world again, I loooove them so much <3

I don't think they have to be a combination, it can easily just be an order of dominance. I would recommend talking to Xenon, since she has this adoptable Cleiteag Cats that have a genetic string with a TON of traits (like.. there are about 10 different wing types xD) so she might be a better help, if she has time. I know most people here are familiar with TheStable genetics and I think with a bit of tweaking something like that would work just fine, but if you're looking for advice from someone who has templated more complicated strings maybe she can help out ^^

[Kadana Sorano]

I know nothing of genetics, so am no help there.  But I just wanted to post and say how happy I am to see this thread.  I had wondered what happened to these guys, as I was looking forward to the shop opening.

[PonyMama]

I suck at genetics, which is why I just look and say wow

but had to come in and say I want a million Feylings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jojo]

For the mixture of genetics -- you can definitely have more than two letters to define a trait. For example, for tail length, you could have:

T' - long tail
T - medium tail
t - short tail

Where T' is dominant over T which is dominant over t.
So a Tt would be a medium tail carrying short tail. A T't would be a long tail carrying short tail. A T'T would be a long tail carrying medium tail.

By adding gene possibilities this way, you can have way more combinations.

You could also do it how Ravanna described where certain combinations mean different things. In real life cat genetics, cscs (where cs is one gene "letter", even though it's made up of two letters) is Siamese markings and cbcb is Burmese markings. cbcs is Tonkinese markings (a mixture of Burmese and Siamese).

And then you can do what Toffeeca mentioned, which is have modifiers that further create combinations.

So overall it's basically up to you how you want things to work, depending on the possibilities you want to have. As long as you keep your system consistent, there shouldn't be any problems. If there are a lot of possibilities for one gene, the first method might be better. If there's not that many possibilities (in fact, if there's at maximum three possibilities), the second method is better. The second method also makes more sense for colors ('cause colors "mix"

I hope that sort of answered your question O_O;

[Silvanon]

Well, you haven't given quite enough info for me to set up the genetics for you, but I can tell you how the process works from the perspective of the agency owner.

Ok, to create the genetics for your adoptable, first you'll need to list out the various possible traits your critters can have.  So for example, let's say your critters can have Short Hair, Medium Hair, Long Hair, Feathered Wings, and Bat Wings.   Next you need to decide how many Loci you'll have.  A Locus is a pair of genes that decide a particular body trait.  You can tell whether a trait should be part of an existing Locus or a new Locus by asking yourself the following question:  Can the critter have these two traits at the same time?

So, using our example traits, can a critter have Short Hair and Medium Hair at the same time?  No, it's one or the other.  Ok, that means a single locus can determine Short Hair or Medium Hair.  Can a critter have Short Hair and Long Hair at the same time?  No.  Ok, still just one Locus.  Let's call it the Hair Locus.  Can a critter have Short Hair and Feathered Wings at the same time?  Yes.  Ok, that means Feathered Wings are not part of the Hair Locus.  Let's name the new Locus the Wing Locus.  Can a critter have Short Hair and Bat Wings at the same time?  Yes.  Ok, so Bat Wings are not part of the Hair Locus.  Can a critter have Feathered Wings and Bat Wings at the same time?  No.  Ok, that means Bat Wings are on the Wing Locus.

Next, assign a different letter to each Locus.  Let's give the Hair Locus the letter H, and the Wing Locus the letter W.

Now let's consider each locus and decide the dominance of the traits on each.  Let's start with the Wing Locus, which has two possibilities - Feathered or Bat Wings.  Which should be dominant and which recessive?  Let's say Feathered is dominant and Bat is recessive.  That means an upper case W for Feathered Wings, and a lowercase w for Bat wings.  Genetically WW or Ww would show as Feathered Wings, and ww would show as Bat wings.

The Hair locus is a little more complicated with three possibilities - Short, Medium, or Long hair.  These are on an obvious spectrum from short to long.  We need to decide if medium is it's own definitely separate trait, or if medium hair is the result of breeding a short to a long.  If you want medium hair to be able to breed true - homozygous medium x homozygous medium always produces a medium - then you should make medium it's own separate case.  If, on the other hand, you make medium the result of breeding a short to a long, then medium will not breed true - medium x medium could produce short, long OR medium hair, never a pair of mediums guaranteed to throw just medium.  Both ways have their pros and cons, you just need to decide which you're going to do.

Let's say that you decide short hair should be dominant, long hair recessive, and you want medium to be a mix of short & long.  Then short hair would be H, long hair would be h, and medium hair would not get its own letter.  So HH would show as short, Hh would show as medium, and hh would show as long.

On the other hand, let's say you decide short hair is dominant, long hair recessive, and medium hair is it's own case that is recessive to short hair but dominant over long hair.  Short hair would be H, long hair would be h, and medium hair would be h+ (or hm, or whatever character makes sense to you to add after h for medium).  In this case, the possible gene pairs and how they show are as follows:

HH - short
Hh+ - short
Hh - short
h+h+ - medium
h+h - medium
hh - long

Since you're setting up your agency where people can create new breeds by producing strains that breed true, I'd recommend making "in-between" possibilities on Loci their own thing with their own letters, rather than going for mixes that can never breed true.

When setting up spreadsheets to track genes, you need to have two columns per locus.  So in our example, we have two Loci, so the spreadsheet would have four columns.  We'd probably also want to add a fifth column for ID number.  Column names could be ID, Hair1, Hair2, Wing1, Wing2.

Feel free to ask questions!

[Ryuukokoro]

0.0 *Ryuu starts taking notes on all the people's responses and thinking on a new adoptable...*

[Zephyr]

jojo080889, Ravvana, Toffeeca, and Silvanon - for trying to pound this info into my (admittedly thick) skull, you've earned a natural-colored custom - the first Secundi Doorians :3  If you want a feline, you can let me know what you'd like now. If you want an equine and want to wait to see what the others look like, that's cool too!

Between all of you, I think I know more-or-less how it works - I was baffled on how to have three different traits in one loci. Never covered that in jr high bio, just the basic squares, far as I can remember (it WAS over a decade ago!). And the husband has offered to set up a spreadsheet for tracking things, so this makes me happy :3

Still working on the equine templates, which are inked and slowly being shaded. Then I'll have a grand opening on Secundi! Am looking forward to it!

....And glad too to see people eager to see the HUMAN Doorians, too. On PI people only seem to want the four-feets >_<;;

[Ryuukokoro]

Whooooo!!!

I will admit I usually don't go for the human adoptables, the Doorians are the only ones other than the AAA that I like. THey're just so small and cute!! And you have lots of different options for them so they all have the ability to look so unique. ^^

[Silvanon]

Awe, thank you!  I hope I've been helpful.  Still feel free to ask if you run into more questions! 

I think I'll love to eventually collect all the different Doorian types, but for now, that bottom left Feyling kitty template is just too pretty to pass up.  XD  Could I get one colored as a flame point?  http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Midnight_girl66/flame-point-siamese-cat-bonsaibu-1.jpg  Um... name "Sen."  I'm assuming the templates are gendered, but if not, I'll go for female.

[Zephyr]

Ryuu - hopefully the options they have will continue to multiply! I have tons of sketches waiting to be made reality :3

Silvanon - You should be a teacher, just sayin'. You made it make sense to *me* and that's quite an accomplishment! So be assured - you'll probably get more questions from me

Yes, they're gendered templates. I should've clarified that, sorry!  Macchiato is male, Mousse is female. Let me know which gender you want :3

Also, just a heads up - Doorians with proper Doorian names have a higher chance of larger litters :3

[Silvanon]

Awe, thanks, glad to know I was helpful!    Ok, male is fine, I really like that pose. ^_^  Knowing that, though, I'd like to change the name to "Tillun" please.  Thank you!

[Ryuukokoro]

Also, just a heads up - Doorians with proper Doorian names have a higher chance of larger litters :3

Omg I luv you!! ;___; *snuggles*

This is why I love the Doorian shop. XD So much fun!

[Pinkshadow]

Also, just a heads up - Doorians with proper Doorian names have a higher chance of larger litters :3

and how would newcommers liek me know what "proper" names are?

[Zephyr]

Pink - by playing the game! Here's a quote from a PI thread about the game:

In all events for LotGGD, there is one universal rule: the Game is always in play, but you can NEVER tell someone how it works!!! People who give it away will find their pets and Doorians repossessed! And if I hear of people giving the game away via PM, they risk the same consequences. The game can be fun, so please don't ruin it for people!

"What is this game?" you ask, and, "How do we play? What are the rules?" Ah! The Doorians would LOVE to play with you! How do you learn? By observation and guesswork! Don't let anyone TELL you how to play, though - that would make the Doorians upset and they might avoid you! D: And as stated above - anyone who gives away the game or offers to PM the information will be shunned by Doorians!

What I *can* do is give you some examples!

In the Land of the Green Glass Doors:
There are cookies, but no cake!
There are umbrellas, but no rain!
There are books, but no pages!

How do you play? You can post 3 guesses a day! Always post one thing that IS in the Land of the Green Glass Doors, and one thing that isn't! Doorians might be drawn to someone who plays the game - even if you don't get it right for a while, they'll probably be happy that you tried, and it's a fun way to keep a thread bumped :3

[Ryuukokoro]

*giggles happily*

In the Land of Doorian, there's no libraries, but there are bookkeepers! ^_^

[Silvanon]

Hehe

In the Land of Doorian, there are noodles, but no pasta!

[PonyMama]

In the Land of Doorian, there are art programs, but no tablets.

[Goddesss]

In the Land of Doorian, their are pools, but no water.

[jojo]

Oooh! I'm so glad that we were able to help Thank you for offering customs, that makes me happy X3

Can I have a dilute tortie male Zephling? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tortoiseshell_she-cat.JPG
I would like to name him Toori.
Ahh, I love the feline Doorians! X3

[Ravvana]

Oh, thank you! I think I'll wait for the rest of the equines so I can get a Sean mimic, although the felines are lovely, too! <3

[Zephyr]

In the Land of Doorian, there's no libraries, but there are bookkeepers! ^_^

Yep!

In the Land of Doorian, there are noodles, but no pasta!

And yep!

In the Land of Doorian, there are art programs, but no tablets.

Alas, there are neither tablets nor art programs in Greenglassia! D:

In the Land of Doorian, their are pools, but no water.

Yep!

Can I have a dilute tortie male Zephling? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tortoiseshell_she-cat.JPG
I would like to name him Toori.
Ahh, I love the feline Doorians! X3

Just double checking, you mean a male *feline* Zephling, right? :3


Just finished the Darklings, and despite drawing them separately, just now realised how similar the poses are to each other. *whimper* This is what happens when you work on less than ideal sleep T_T And - I intended them to be a little bigger, but because one Darkling is rearing up he looks HUGE next to a Zephling >_<

Need to tweak and re-shade the Zephlings (they were the original lineart), then I can show you all three equine breeds, and they're genetically typed, too! Currently each species has 7 distinct - loci? Zephling, Darkling, and Feyling breeds are homozygous.

Some questions for everyone now -

1) Pricing on Secundi. I have a meagre.....8k secunds, but when I browse the forums it looks like bribes range from 200k-1 mil, flatsales around 50k? I really have no idea on prices. How does Secundi currency compare to USD and PG?

2) Genetic typing. Should I let people figure out dominant traits themselves, or reveal the genetic code of each one?

[Ryuukokoro]

I think the Secundi economy is still balancing itself out. I would say 10-20k is fair for flatsales. Normal bribes I would say 100k (the bribes you see going for 2 mill are for highly prized agency pets, I think).


Genetic typing: I would say let us figure it out ourselves! ^^ More fun!

[jojo]

Yes, I mean a feline Zephling! Thank you~

I agree with Ryuu! I love figuring out the genetic code, it adds more fun to breeding!

[Zephyr]

Seeing as it's 6 am here, I'm about to catch some Zzzzz's. Just have to finish the Feyling templates - wings can be a pain to draw sometimes >_< 

But....thought I'd give you a peek at what the first event is going to be....can you guess the theme?  >_> 

         

         

Thoughts on the Darkling breed? I'm not 100% happy with it, but I'm SO tired of fussing with the template!  *falls over*


Tomorrow - finish Zephling breed and a couple customs!

[Ryuukokoro]

Glee! I loooove them! Customs, customs! \o/

I'm sooo glad you're going to be more active here! ^^

[Zephyr]

Right, here we go with the last base equine breed, Zephling!

I used the existing horse lines I had, though the lines have been tweaked and the shading redone - and, of course, wings added. Thoughts?

     

[toffeeca]

Thank you so much Zephyr! Could I possibly get a female Feyling colored like my kitty?

Here are pictures of her
http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z20/puggle373/Iris/

Can her name be Iriis please?

I also really love those ponies, especially the feyling ones. I really like the stain glass looking wings.

[Ravvana]

I adore the one on the left <3 The one on the right has a beautiful body and wings, but something about the head seems a bit off... Something like the head is too small for the body and/or the eyes are too big for the head? I dunno though; maybe that's just me.

Trying the game thingie, although I don't really get it XD
In the Land of Doorian, there are sundaes, but no ice cream.

[toffeeca]

I agree with Ravv, I think the eyes on the second one are too big compared to the rest of it. I think I get the game...

In the Land of Doorian, there are appaloosas, but no spots.

[Ryuukokoro]

For some reason my brain isn't happy that both the Zephlings are facing left. ^^;; I'd like it better if you kept the tradition of one facing left and one facing right! (Though of course now I just noticed both the Feyling felines are facing in the same direction.... just didn't notice before because the poses are so different ^^;; )


Ooooo good one toff! X3

[Silvanon]

Could the first event theme possibly be natural horse colors? 

In the Land of Doorians, there are discussions, but never arguments.  :O

[Zephyr]

Toffeeca, I hope to get all the customs so far done by tomorrow – and hopefully set up a launch thread, too :3   And yep, lots of Appaloosas...and nary a spot to be seen!

Ravvana – I think their heads are the same size – I compare templates obsessively in the working phase, so I think it's the larger/wider eye. I can tone it down though. And sadly, there are neither sundaes nor icecream in Greenglassia....but at least they have cookies!

Ryuu – I seriously thought about flipping one of the horse zephlings – but speaking of tradition – before I ever had different breeds, or the idea for the cats, I had the two horse templates...and they were facing the same way :X  I tried flipping her anyway, but I'd have to make the cert taller so their wings aren't clipping underneath the cert. A cert as big as the Darkling stallion's, actually, which makes them appear larger than they actually are (they're supposed to be between Feyling and Darkling in size). :S

Silvanon - natural colors are the norm for Doorians. Fantasy colors and markings are possible - either through USD customs, special auctions, or through potions - but always breed recessive to natural markings and colors.

[jojo]

Is the theme rainy day? I don't know if the certs are always like that or what. XD And the colors of the critters are nice muted "rainy-day" colors :3

[springacres]

Is the theme Mary Poppins?  (don't ask... that's just what popped into my head when I saw them lol)

[Zephyr]

Jojo pretty much got it - it's 'April Showers'! All the critters will be rainy-day greys in some form or other :3

I did forget that ya'll Secundians haven't seen the normal certs. Usually it's a gradient blue with some item in the corner. Daggan here is modeling the winter festival cert:

And I just colored one of the humans - one who doesn't seem to be happy about being caught in the rain, judging by her expression ... >_> Maybe she learned why you shouldn't wear white tshirts in the rain?

...it's not too racy for Secundi, is it? It was just the first thing I thought of >_<

[Ryuukokoro]

*giggle* Poor grumpy girl. It's not too racy, nope! ^^ Secundi is a lot more tolertant of that kinda thing than PI is. (Our forum is rated PG-13 I believe, while PI is strictly G or possibly PG...)

Ooohh good guesses people! I wouldn't have thought of the April showers thing but I love it! I really love changing certs, and the Doorians have beautiful ones. ^^

[Zephyr]

Pickups!



Ravvana, let me know when you decide :3

[Ryuukokoro]

Congrats guys! Pretties!!

[Ravvana]

I think I'll go with a male equine Zephling mimic of Sean Thanks again! <3

Sean is a dark bay with the typical black points and lighter brown around his muzzle/eyes. He has two facial markings (star, snip) and two hind socks. In the right lighting, he has light dappling (more visible in second album).

Reference Photos:
(1) http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=20305&id=1265417116&l=488b6cfad8
(2) http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=23261&id=1265417116&l=7c596218ad
(3) http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=61520&id=1265417116&l=0c0253bf5b
Also: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Ravvana/finale_.jpg
And: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Ravvana/cantering.jpg

[jojo]

Waaaah! *dances* Thanks Zephyr, I love mine! X3

[Silvanon]

Tillun looks great!  Thank you!