Quin Breeding Projects

[Ryuukokoro]

Apologies if this is the wrong forum, I couldn't think of anywhere else for this to go. I'm making a list of the various Quin markings/genes and which breeds they exist for, and which ones they don't. That way I can tell what breeding projects I might want to tackle to get new genes into the other breeds. ^_^

Anyone is welcome to post in this thread with more information, especially those who understand the genes more than me (which is just about everyone here XD ). And feel free to post if you want to share your own breeding plans! I'm making this as more of a public thread than a thread for my own info.


Roan
Exists in: Clyd, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Mustang, Shetland
Is not in: Andalusian, Arabian, Friesian, Luestin

Dun
Exists in: Arabian, Clyd, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Mustang, Shetland
Is not in: Andalusian, Friesian, Luestin

Gray
Exists in: Andalusian, Arabian, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Mustang, Shetland
Is not in: Clyd, Friesian, Luestin

White
Exists in: Arabian, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Shetland
Is not in: Andalusian, Clyd, Friesian, Luestin, Mustang

Appaloosa Snowflake
Exists in: Gypsy Vanner
Is not in: Andalusian, Arabian, Clyd, Freisian, Luestin, Miniature Horse, Mustang, Shetland

Appaloosa Blanket
Exists in: Gypsy Vanner, Mustang, Miniature Horse
Is not in: Andalusian, Arabian, Clyd, Freisian, Luestin, Shetland

Appaloosa Leopard
Exists in: Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse
Is not in: Andalusian, Arabian, Clyd, Freisian, Luestin, Mustang, Shetland

Tobiano
Exists in: Arabian, Clyd, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Mustang, Shetland
Is not in: Andalusian, Freisian, Luestin

Overo Frame
Exists in: Arabian, Clyd, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Shetland
Is not in: Andalusian, Freisian, Luestin, Mustang

Overo Sabino
Exists in: Arabian, Clyd, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Mustang, Shetland
Is not in: Andalusian, Freisian, Luestin

Overo Splash
Exists in: Arabian, Clyd, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Mustang, Shetland
Is not in: Andalusian, Freisian, Luestin

Flaxen
Exists in: Clyd, Arabian, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Mustang, Shetland
Is not in: Andalusian, Freisian, Luestin

Silver Dapple
Exists in: Arabian, Clyd, Gypsy Vanner, Miniature Horse, Mustang, Shetland
Is not in: Andalusian, Freisian, Luestin



Added:
Coat colors:
Black Coat: Anda, Arabian, Clyd, Friesian, Vanner, Luestin, Mini, Mustang, Shetland
Red coat: Arabian, Clyd, Vanner, Mini, Mustang, Shetland (no Anda, Friesian, Luestin)

Agouti:
Bay: Anda, Arabian, Clyd, Vanner, Luestin, Mini, Mustang, Shetland (no Friesian)
Brown: Arabian, Clyd, Vanner, Mini, Mustang, Shetland (no Anda, Friesian, Luestin)


Cream genes:

Single-
Buckskin: Arabian, Clyd, Vanner, Mini, Mustang, Shetlands (no Anda, Friesian, Luestin)
Palomino: Arabian, Vanner, Mini, Mustang, Shetland (no Anda, Clyd, Friesian, Luestin)
Smokey Black: Arabian, Vanner, Mini, Shetland (no Anda, Clyd, Friesian, Luestin, Mustang)

Double-
Perlino: Arabian, Vanner, Mustang (no Anda, Clyd, Friesian, Luestin, Mini, Shetland)
Cremello: Arabian, Vanner, Shetland (no Anda, Clyd, Friesian, Luestin, Mini, Mustang)
Smokey cream: Arabian, Vanner (no Anda, Clyd, Friesian, Luestin, Mini, Mustang, Shetland)

Also listing dun and roan:

Mouse Dun: Arabian, Vanner, Shetland
Red Dun: Arabian, Clyd, Vanner, Shetland
Yellow Dun: Arabian, Clyd, Vanner, Mini, Mustang, Shetland
Blue Dun: Arabian, Vanner, Shetland

Brown Roan: Vanner, Mustang, Shetland
Bay Roan: Clyd, Vanner, Mini, Shetland
Chestnut Roan: Clyd, Vanner, Shetland
Black Roan: Vanner, Mini, Shetland

[TheLeet]

I'm no good at genetics but I just wanted to say that I like the idea of breeding new genes into certain breeds. I looked at Clydesdales the other day and just wished there would be a few Duns among them

[Keilin Alyr]

Cream exists in the Arabians as well. Sunchaser owns examples of cream in both Arabian (Sunchaser) and Gypsy Vanner (Grace, Angel, Gabriel, Ethereal). Mutt also owns a cream Arabian.

I know you said you had trouble with dominance in regular agouti, but cream is just a variation of it. Golden buckskin is cream-bay, sooty buckskin is cream-brown, and smoky black is cream-black. Palomino is cream-chestnut. Perlino is double-cream on the agouti colors, while cremello is double-cream on chestnut.

Also, breeding the frame and splash overo variations in the non-Friesian breeds shouldn't be too difficult. It's not a separate gene, it's related to the base overo gene, so even Quinsta that don't show overo carry the potential for it. All it takes is two sabino parents (one carrying, of course) to create any overo pattern variant.

And heh... not being a horse person, I really sound like I'm stretching what little knowledge I have. Could someone bail me out here? Springacres, maybe? XD

As for projects, I'm hoping to work on Palomino Tobiano and Yellow Dun Silver Dapple Clydes, though the 75% or more of one breed in the final project is throwing the first project a little. I don't want to inbreed.

[YourLoveOnly]

XD Little knowledge or not, you are very right.
You did forget smoky cream which is double-cream on black

[Ryuukokoro]

Also, breeding the frame and splash overo variations in the non-Friesian breeds shouldn't be too difficult. It's not a separate gene, it's related to the base overo gene, so even Quinsta that don't show overo carry the potential for it. All it takes is two sabino parents (one carrying, of course) to create any overo pattern variant.

lol that explains how the only Frame Quin in existence came to be from breeding a sabino overo parent.

Hmm, I think frame and tobiano would be really pretty in the Clyds... *makes a note for future projects*


lol the agouti/cream thing still makes my eyes go @_<

[YourLoveOnly]

Basically all horses are either black or chestnut (EE and Ee being black, ee being chestnut).

A visually black horse has no agouti (aa). Agouti can change the color a black base to appear brown or bay.  AA, AAt and Aa agouti make the horse bay, AtAt and Ata make the horse brown.
If the base is chestnut (ee) then the agouti does not change the color of the horse and you won't know what agouti genes it has unless you breed it to black-based horses (black/brown/bay).
Two black horses will never produce a bay or brown together, because they simply don't have an agouti gene.

Cream can change any color. A horse can have single and double cream (Cc and CC. Just like a horse can be homozygous tobiano or heterozygous tobiano for example). If a horse does not have a cream gene it stays black/bay/brown/chestnut (whatever it already was). If the horse does have cream you get the following;
Black + single cream = Smoky Black
Black + double cream = Smoky Cream
Bay + single cream = Golden Buckskin
Bay + double cream = Perlino
Brown + single cream = Sooty Buckskin
Brown + double cream = Perlino
Chestnut + single cream = Palomino
Chestnut + double cream = Cremello

I hope that was somewhat helpful.

[Keilin Alyr]

You know, given that my main Stable plans revolve around base black and its genetic variants, I'm not sure how I managed to forget smoky cream. You're probably the best person to have caught that though, YLO, thanks for the head's up. XD

[Ryuukokoro]

Ohhhh!! You know, that clears up a lot for me!

So if you breed a black horse to a chestnut horse (not taking into consideration the agouti at the moment) you have the possibility of 100% black babies if the black parent is EE (because that would make all the babies Ee). Or 50/50 chance for black or chestnut baby if the black parent is Ee (because the babies would either come out Ee or ee). HA! I finally get that first part of breeding! XD


I understand tobiano and cream in that they only have 'either/or' options (either CC or Cc for cream, for example). I can do punnet squares like that. The agouti is still a little confusing since there's four things to consider: AA, AAt, Aa, and aa. Not sure how one would set up a punnet square to figure out foal possibilities when there's that much complication...

But at least I am making strides! lol. The 'e's and the 'c's are no longer a mystery to me! lol.

[YourLoveOnly]

No there are only three types: A, At and a.
And yay, I am glad I was able to explain some stuff in a way that made sense

[Ryuukokoro]

Oh, oh, yes! ha! That is a little more clear.

There's two types of gene for those 'either/or' genes: C and c. Which leaves 3 possible combos: CC, Cc, or cc.

With the agouti there's three genes: A, At and a. But that leaves.... nine possible combos, right? wait wait no.. they only match up in pairs. So the combos could be: AA, AAt, Aa, AtAt, Ata, and aa. Ha, exactly what you wrote in your post earlier! Haha! I think I am getting it! XD

[YourLoveOnly]

That is completely right!

[springacres]

You have both perlino and cremello listed as single cream colors on that list, YLO.

Also, Ryuu, I love love love this idea.  But you left out gray.  (Pretty sure it only exists in Arabians anyway, but I do love it and want to spread more of it across other breeds...)

[TheLeet]

Yes, grey is lovely. I think there's a grey grade horse out there too 

[YourLoveOnly]

And white! Don't forget white <3 (the regular one, not the lethal overo x overo form)

@spring: that's what I get for copy pasting XD But Ryuu got my point, so all is good.

[Keilin Alyr]

Yeah, I want a white Vanner so badly. I've been thinking about trying my hand at a project, but I think I have my hands full with my two Clyde ideas. =)

[Ryuukokoro]

Oooo gray and white are important! I added them in.

Hmm, maybe I'll make a list of what Grades are out there, later. That will help in breeding planning. <3

[Ryuukokoro]

List of Grades added, hope some find that helpful ^^

[springacres]

Thanks for posting the grades, Ryuu.  And this thread has given me new ideas for my Clyde mare next season

[springacres]

Thanks for posting the grades, Ryuu.  And this thread has given me new ideas for my Clyde mare next season

[red_uni387]

oohh thank you Ryuu! this is very helpful

debating whether I should try for a silver dapple grade or a roan grade though...help please? xD

and looking at the stable website, it says blue roan has a base of black, so would black roan = blue roan? Filana's description says black roan, and that's not one of the options on the website so i'm confused

[springacres]

Black roan and blue roan are genetically identical, but for whatever reason black roan has a darker base coat.  I think that's the only difference.

[YourLoveOnly]

@spring: TheStable does not have those as different things. Black + roan = blue roan. It's just a common name. Just like chestnut roan is also called red roan or strawberry roan. It's the same thing. So if Quinsta follows TheStable genetics then blue and black roan should be the same thing.

[Ryuukokoro]

Yeah I'm 99% sure Sil said she's going with TheStable's way of breeding, so blue roan is black roan, just with a fancy name. (Like blue dun is also called grullo.)

[Ryuukokoro]

moved to top post

[Spiderfly]

I have a splash overo arabian stud if you'd like to try breeding either of your tobiano arabian X grades to him. ^^

http://www.secundi.net/critterpage.php?ID=408566

[TheLeet]

It looks like there now is a grey Gypsy Vanner. Yay

[Ryuukokoro]

Yes! And an appaloosa blanket Vanner too! WHOO

[Nighthenge]

I've decided to work on bringing cream, tobiano, and grey into the Clyde population.  Should have a cream (and hopefully tobiano) grade at the end of this breeding season to get me started.

[springacres]

Hehe, Nighthenge, I'm doing the same thing.  Hoping for a silver dapple tobiano grade myself because we could use another silver dapple line in Clydes.  (Though I wouldn't say no to a nice bay tobiano either... xD

[Sunchaser]

Go Ethereal! *giggles*

[springacres]

@spring: TheStable does not have those as different things. Black + roan = blue roan. It's just a common name. Just like chestnut roan is also called red roan or strawberry roan. It's the same thing. So if Quinsta follows TheStable genetics then blue and black roan should be the same thing.

Didn't see this before, but thanks for clarifying that, YLO.

[Keilin Alyr]

Hehe, Nighthenge, I'm doing the same thing.  Hoping for a silver dapple tobiano grade myself because we could use another silver dapple line in Clydes.  (Though I wouldn't say no to a nice bay tobiano either... xD

I think a few more of the solid flaxen chestnut mares should be test-bred. I noticed quite a few of the Vanners of that coloration (including my Verin) were hiding silver dapples, so I wouldn't be surprised if that were also the case in the Clydes. I know Rising Sun hides silver since he's Chanda's father, though that doesn't help if the intent is to create new lines. =)

[Ryuukokoro]

Updated! Hope this helps some more people with their breeding projects!

[YourLoveOnly]

It would help if people didn't leave secundi XD
*pokes inactive users that have Quins with awesome genes* Not helping TAT

[toffeeca]

How much of one breed do we need in a grade for it to become pure? I thought it was around 80% but I have scene 75% other places and I just wanted to check for the projects I have going.

[YourLoveOnly]

At least 80%, the FAQ confirms this too:

Q: Is it possible for a grade horse to produce offspring of a particular breed?
A: Yes, under certain conditions.  If the grade horse in question is mostly a particular breed (more than 80%), and the foal's other parent is that breed as well, the foal has a chance of showing enough of that breed's characteristics to be officially considered that breed rather than grade.

[YourLoveOnly]

*is amused first post says Banners instead of Vanners in some places*

[Ryuukokoro]

Cuz they're so pretty, y'know? Like banners flapping in the breeze. XD

[Neocridders]

I'e set up a thread lookig for a fresian to use for breeding. I'm planning to breed with a vanner to create some grades with vanner coats in fresians. I'll possibly breed a couple vanners this season with fresians if i find some to borrow, and I'll continue each season, breeding fresians into my grades in hope of a new coat for fresians.
I don't know how many grades I'll end up getting. I'm probably going to try for two grades this season and next time breed those with fresians.
Unless the black color is dominant. Then oh no. I'll have to get vanner colored fresians if I want to work on my project.


Anyone  have any idea how many generations ut'll take to get the grade offspring to be enough fresian to be considered one?
Eta oh i see it! Thanks XD

[toffeeca]

I'm pretty sure it will take three generations for a grade to become pure. The first generation it would be 50% of each parent, the next it would be 75% of the breed you want to introduce the gene to, the third it would be 87.5% of that breed so it would be considered pure.

[YourLoveOnly]

@Neo: Black base is dominant, but bay and brown are also black base coats. For bay and brown you would need to look for Quinsta that has AA, AAt or AtAt as their agouti, not Aa or Ata, because aa produces black. If you use a bay or brown that is Aa or Ata you have a 50% chance of getting a black grade. If you use one that is AA, AAt or AtAt you have a 100% chance of getting something that is nót black.

Because chestnut into Friesians will be a LOT more painful because all Friesians are homozygous black. They never produce chestnuts, so if silv stayed true to the breed which I think she did then none of the Friesians carry chestnut. I recommend waiting for 4th gen Friesians to show up before attempting it.

If you ever need any help, feel free to PM me.

@toffeeca: That is true, assuming you use first gen pets of course.

[Neocridders]

Neo fails a horse genetics.
What this means is that I can't use a fresian and get a color other than black?
Or, it could happen with the right pair?
So if I wanted to introduce a white vanner coat to fresian, is it possible to get a white offspring?
I've got a girl who is white. Could thatgo to offspring?
Or a chestnut?
Or another color? Should I look for a vanner that doesn't carry black?

[Pinkshadow]

I wish i would knew what all this meant :p

[YourLoveOnly]

Chestnut is harder, as you need a chestnut need from both parents to get chestnut. No Friesians carry chestnut, so it would take a lot of breeding to get that to happen. The easiest and fastest way is using two 4th gen Friesians and two 1st gen chestnuts of another breed. But I don't think we have 4th gen Friesians yet.

White hides anything, so it can have chestnut, bay, brown and black hidden under it as well as special genes like grey, dun and roan. So it's harder to predict what will happen there.

Bay and brown should be do able, you just either need luck or do a bit of searching to find one that doesn't hide a black agouti gene. If you want help with that, feel free to PM me.

Patterns like paint, dun and roan are the easiest as the Friesian's black color cannot alter a pattern so you only have to worry about finding a Vanner that is homozygous for the pattern you want OR cross your fingers and hope it passes XD

[Nighthenge]

Because chestnut into Friesians will be a LOT more painful because all Friesians are homozygous black. They never produce chestnuts, so if silv stayed true to the breed which I think she did then none of the Friesians carry chestnut. I recommend waiting for 4th gen Friesians to show up before attempting it.

Actually, this is not the case IRL.  There are quite a few chestnut Friesians out there, the registry just won't accept them into the breeding stock books (they'll only register them in the foal books).
Fire Magic is one of the better known.
http://www.worldofdancinghorses.com/Chewy-full-body-w_barn.jpg

[toffeeca]

@YLO- It wouldn't matter what generations you started with, as long as they are all pure. My Yuliana is 50% Arabian and 50% Gypsy, yet her father is a second generation himself. So long as every parent is pure than the percentages will still go 50%, 75%, 87.5%.

[Ryuukokoro]

0_0 Chestnut Fresian photo = love!

[YourLoveOnly]

@Nighthenge: oh maybe some Friesian quins will carry Chestnut then.. In that case it would be a lot easier, but until we find out if one carries chestnut it will be a pain

@toffeeca: I wasn't talking about %s, I was assuming Friesians don't carry chestnut. In which case you would need to get a pure Friesian rather quickly or you would have to keep breeding back to chestnut horses of other breeds to make sure the new offspring carries chestnut. If Friesians do carry chestnut this will be a LOT less painful <3 If they don't.. Well then you need to get two chestnut Grades of at least 80% Friesian in its pedigree and then breed those to Friesians until you get a pure Friesian from each breeding, each one an opposite gender. If Friesians don't carry chestnut then getting a visible chestnut Grade with 80% you will need at least a 4th gen or you will have to keep breeding back to other breeds to make sure the chestnut keeps showing or at least keeps getting carries and then it would take ages to get that 80%. Breed those together until they both pass on their carried chestnut gene and then you will have the first chestnut Friesian. Of course, if none of the pure Friesians carry chestnut you would only get carriers when breeding the chestnut any further >.< So I am really hoping Nighthenge is right or it will be extremely extremely painful to establish that color in the breed.

[Ryuukokoro]

First post has been updated with this season's new genes! ^_^

[Ryuukokoro]

Updated with all the current genes, including those that have been bred into new breeds. :3