Garden Nom/Victoria Snails

[Silvanon]

A user who does not wish to be named requested this be posted up.  The images from the original message have been resaved onto the Secundi server so as not to reveal identities from hosting sites.

This is a tentative post... since I'm not sure of anything here.

This is the snail for garden noms (ran by TheLeet). This snail has been in the breeding thread for a while now.

Today Victoria posted this in this thread(http://www.secundi.net/forum.php?topic=2043.0):


Now, I know it's different. But the colors are the same, the size is the exact same, and it's in the same position. It's also in a similar style (cute, small, not very much detail).


Here they are, animated to see the differences and similarities.

Again, I'm sorry I bet it's nothing, I HOPE it's nothing, and I am probably just being stupid here. I just felt it was a little too similar and better be safe then sorry.

I hope no one is hurt by this being post.

[TheLeet]

Hmmm...I don't really know what to make of this. There aren't many ways to draw a snail, especially if you don't add a lot of detail. If you look closely you can see that the shell on Victoria's snail is the other way around.
However, the colours and the size being the same is somewhat concerning. If it wasn't for that I would have been sure it was just a coincidence but now I don't know.
It's such a simple drawing that I really wouldn't consider it worth copying. Surely it's just simpler to do your own?

edit: Anyway, thank you to whoever found it. It's certainly interesting and I would have never noticed myself

edit: Another thing I noticed from looking at the post is that the snail and the driftwood are somewhat different in style. Why have an outline on the snail but not on the wood?
Looking back through some of her other artwork I can definitely recognize her style....but then you get the odd art that just doesn't seem to fit in. This is obviously not hard evidence and I wouldn't call anyone an art thief based on it but I thought it was worth pointing out.

[Victoria]

Thats how i draw snails haha i see that the shell i made is the wrong way  oh and the animals i make always have to have an outline but somethimes i leave it black or take the inside color and make it a bit darker. I did not mean to copy if i did...

[TheLeet]

I know accidentally copying things can sometimes happen. But having it in exactly the same size seems like a rather big coincidence.

I also don't understand how all these pictures can be from the same person:
http://www.secundi.net/forum.php?topic=2319.msg53892#msg53892
http://www.secundi.net/forum.php?topic=2253.msg51546#msg51546
The dragon is clearly of much higher quality than the other art and I find that a bit strange :/

Actually, reading the thread I know understand that the dragon was drawn with a tutorial - so that  would explain it I suppose.

[Victoria]

But see i draw much better off the computer then on. Also i really did not know they were the same size i first opened up GIMP then i open a new page and but 50x50 then i drew a swirl then the snails torso the the tail. I was just drawing then i colored it in and some highlights at the bottom and use the burn tool for the shell. I can also draw another high quality picture in a few hours i just woke up so im still a bit sleepy now. 

[TheLeet]

Don't worry, I won't make you draw anything high quality right now XD

Like I said, I'm not sure either way. I'd really like to hear what other people have to say on the matter

[Victoria]

Ok but i really can prove that i did not copy but i have many, MANY different ways to draw i have my cute and cuddly, my cartoons, my horses which can some times fall in to the realistic category, and then my more realistic.

Also i have been drawing snails since i was in fifth grade the same way i draw them now cartoon style lol!

[YourLoveOnly]

You still haven't given credit to the tutorial either. It has been made using a tutorial, I can prove that, it's way too similair to not have been. I agree with TheLeet that your style is waaay to different each time, it makes me doubt if it's not art theft. Please credit the tutorial. If you drew this yourself using the tutorial then it needs to be credited. If you can't give credit to the tutorial then that would honestly make me think you just found this image on google or deviantart or something and claimed it as your own So please, especially now that an art theft issue has been brought up, please post a link to the dragon tutorial you used.

Drawing the snail is same size and same way already seems too much of a coincidence to me, but it's also the same color so I can't believe that you did not look at that snail while drawing it.

[indigowulf]

I do have these adorable little snails, drawn by Willow and shaded/inked by me, that I could use. I was using them as familiars and forgot I still had the file, yay! So, as these are so adorable, I'll use them. That means, as far as the snails go, Im not a part of it- so theres no need to worry about them being sold at this time, if it needs time for working out.

Willow snail (aint it cute?)-

[Victoria]

the tutorial i have no idea where the link is. I will admit i did use the same colors from Leet but that is all i did not try to copy. I really do not want to be accused of something i just drew and it looks like Leet's snail but can you get banned for using the same colors as the other person?

[Victoria]

Drawing the snail is same size and same way already seems too much of a coincidence to me, but it's also the same color so I can't believe that you did not look at that snail while drawing it.

Also like i said i drew this snail the same way i drew in 5th grade so i have been drawing the same way for a while

[YourLoveOnly]

I don't know what the Council thinks about banning, but I would personally never do bussiness with someone that does art theft.

Victoria, really, look for that tutorial link. I know for a fact that when using IE you can view your browser history from up to 3 weeks ago, I know the dragon hasn't been up that long so you can go look for the link. Firefox has similair options, but I am not familiar with them so I can't say anything specific about that. But really, do you understand if you post a snail so similair to TheLeet's artwork and also other art that is far less detailed than your dragon people will get very suspicious? I'll admit I've been looking for a website that has that exact dragon, because I am having doubts that you did draw it. So please, provide the tutorial link. It will put people's mind at ease. About the snail.. Yea I still think it's too similair to be called your own artwork. Same build, same size, same colors. It's not just the colors. It's a heavily referenced picture, too referenced I think.

[Victoria]

I delete my browsers history every week because my computer gets slow. Also I did draw this snail with out looking at hers once i was finished with the outline i use her picture to get the shell and body color the snail is so small i can't add all the little details i want to add so it came out like Leet's.

[YourLoveOnly]

Don't you feel like it is too similair yourself once you finished and looked at both images? Do you feel comfortable selling that image and saying it is completely your own artwork, not referenced?

And it's not even a week ago that you put up that dragon. And as long as you don't link to the tutorial I will keep looking for evidence that you didn't draw it. Either way you need to take the picture down, the tutorial says you can't make a dragon that looks exactly like it which is what you did. It's not traced, but it's extremely similair just like with this snail. The tutorial said it's not allowed and if you do you need to credit. So without credit you need to take it down. Copying a tutorial doesn't make it your own artwork.

[Victoria]

I've been searching and i found it.

http://neondragonart.com/dp/tutorials/dragon.htm

I read it and it does not say you can't draw it to look the same!
But why are you so determine to get me banned? I have not done anything to you or anyone here. The snails looks the same but that does not mean i stold them!

[PonyMama]

Victoria this was posted in the frequently Asked Questions where you found the tutorial

May I redraw your artwork?

If you are practicing, certainly! If you end up reposting the image based on my art, please give credit to www.neondragonart.com somewhere near the artwork. If you want to redraw my artwork to fill out a portfolio, for commission, for any sort of monetary gain (this includes Neopoints, Gaia points, and Warcraft gold) then you may not redraw my artwork. My art may only be redrawn for practice and non-commercial purposes.

I have nothing to say about any of this as TheLeet has said plenty and she is the one who would have been wronged if this is true, but I will say that if you use a tutorial always make sure you post the link with the art.

[Victoria]

Ok thank you PM. 

[Victoria]

Every sicne the day i started to play this game you always were being very rude to me. I never did anything to you and you just want to find out the flaws in everything i have done! Know you think i stole the art. There are not many ways people draw snails. Just because their that same size does not me i stole. First i thought we were starting to be friends then you just start to be rude to me again..... I dont know if you were trying too but you were. I'm tired of coming here and have to deal with rude people. I'm done with this game for good. I hope you are happy that I'm leaving......

[TheLeet]

I'm sorry that you're upset. It's probably best not to stick around when a community upsets you too much.
I wish you good luck with your art and finding internet communities where you can be happy <3

[Victoria]

Thank you! 

[Victoria]

I'm not referring to everyone just one...like you said in your post this person thought i did art theft before this person even found evidence also this person ignored something i did instead of correcting it....

[PonyMama]

You could just try again with the snail, it woulnd't harm anything
but if you don't want to be here anymore then of course it would be best for you to not be, why stay somewhere that doesn't make you happy.

This is one of the biggest reasons Secundi is even here
~~~~~~~~~~

But as you are leaving I will be takign back your orlaya, as they are a secundi based adoptable and won't be kept by people who are not here. 

Sorry you are leaving, I tried to be helpful but you dug your heels in as well, hope one day you decide to come back but until then bye

[indigowulf]

The funny thing is, I think this is all over the snails. I found my other snails that willow had made, which anyone would agree are adorable and worth using, so the art in question wasnt going to be purchased anyway. And on top of everything I payed you just for the effort you put in even though I didnt buy them and people questioned them which is above and beyond on the being polite/nice scale. Yet you say everyone has been rude. That makes me feel my efforts to be polite were a waste of time.

I also think the biggest #1 difference between here and neopets is that here, you are supposed to be 13 just to sign up. Therefor, people dont treat others here as if they were children, because we expect that they have a certain maturity level. We expect they can take constructive critizism. We expect that they will be mature enough to see discussions in the light they were intended and not take everything as if it were a personal attack. We actually consider it rude to NOT treat someone this way, because that would be treating them like a child, and condescending.

I personally feel that everything you are seeing as rude is in fact the exact opposite. People have gone out of thier way and jumped through hoops to try to welcome you and explain things to you, when you didn't read the rules or the FAQ yourself. They have gone out of thier way to treat you like you were a mature adult, and an equal. They have gone out of thier way to give you chances to prove yourself.

I find it rude, to be honest, that you are disregarding everything people here have done for you, and throwing it back in thier face. I'm sorry but I just cant sit by anymore and watch the people I care about get put down like that. Secundi is like a family. We care about eachother. We may disagree, like any siblings or family does, but we still love eachother. When an outsider comes in and attacks one of us, the rest will be offended. I would have gone to bat for you, stood up for you, protected you, just like everyone else here. But you say you are leaving- you have made the decision to remain an outsider instead of family.

If you wanted to leave, the mature thing to do would have been just doing it without making accusations and calling the whole community rude. You got attention and help before doing this. You really didnt need to. What's done is done, if you want to go, I hope you find somewhere more your speed. If you want to stay, please stop with the negative remarks against the community as a whole, who has tried thier darnest to be nice to you.

[indigowulf]

BTW it wasnt me who reported art theft, if you think that. In fact, since it was in question and I was offering to buy it, a person in charge PM'd me to make sure I saw the thread. That's just what you do when someone may be buying stolen art.

[PonyMama]

I must add, that posting publically is making a bigger spectical than anything.  if you wanted tog et your point across to only one person you failed, this has made quite a few people feel very upset, as I have tried and so have many others to help you out, only to be told you think we are rude.

I am sorry you feel that way, but I know from day one we told you read the faq's and the rules and you wou;d leanr everything you needed to know, unstead of running through secundi blind.  This is also not the first time you have said you were leaving to go back to neopets.  Well if you would prefer to be there then that is where you should be.

Indigo said everything very well and the fact that she paid you anyways for your efforts proves not everyone was out to get you

[YourLoveOnly]

I would not be surprised if this is about me, but I could be wrong. I asked Victoria if she could not participate in my adoptable until it was decided if the snail was art theft or not, because I don't want someone who does art theft to be a part of my adoptie. I personally do believe it is art theft and just because I said that doesn't mean I am rude to you. The topic was made to figure out if it was theft, I looked at the topic and the two snails and to me it looks like art theft. You may even think I reported it, I didn't. If I did I wouldn't have made non-anonymous posts in that thread.

I think I am also the person that called you out on your mistakes the most. Maybe just because I am online a LOT, I dunno. But if I see a post that doesn't follow rules or guidelines I will say something about it to that person. I do that with everyone, but most people only misread things once or twice. You did that a lot, so to you it may have felt like I attacked you. But everyone who reads my responses to you can see that I didn't. I was simply telling you to read, not just see a cute adoptable and try to get it asap. Effort is rewarded here. If people see you follow rules and don't complain if you miss out on a pet they will make sure you get pets, if you keep missing out they will gift to you. But you have to earn it. Be nice to people and follow rules. It's just common sense, even if you are not from PI. Being nice and following rules is just a normal thing to do.

Neopets is very different, but you can't just go breaking rules there either. It's not a behavior thing, it's really you not reading stuff. When one of my posts said post bold and red and everyone else did you just posted in red, not bold. First time could have been a mistake, but you made 5 posts in a row like that. It doesn't hurt you to spend a few extra minutes to make sure you know and understand all of the rules in a specific thread. It also doesn't hurt you to search through the forum for an answer instead of just posting a thread asking. Most questions you asked were things you could have easily found if you spend just a single minute looking through the rules/guidelines of a thread.

Lastly I agree that this post you made will only make things worse, because you made yet another thread that should not have been made. You have made this post 2 days ago and you keep logging on to see if people are responding. Why? You said you wanted to leave, then do so. You called everyone here rude, staying here will likely cause a fight. Announcing that you are leaving is one thing, but you are doing so in a very negative way and you are offending a lot of people. If you hadn't done this I might have been nicer right now, but if you are calling the entire community rude while we constantly tried to help you and we are known for being such a nice community you will hurt people's feelings. So I think it is indeed best that you go and I agree with you that this is obviously not the right community for you. People have joined here recently that are also not familiar with PI and Secundi, but I haven't seen any of them ignore rules so often and make tons of pointless threads. If you had really wanted to be here you could have acted differently. And because you came from neopets you may not have known these things at first, but we have been telling you over and over again and you have just not been listening. I am sorry things went the way they did and I think you made the best choice for you and everyone.

Note to mods: can this please be moved to another forum, because it does not belong in the Cafe. People check this forum to see an update on someone's story (I personally follow everyone's WildGrowth journals, Ryuu's writing thingy and SeaCrest's Jaeman Prophecy writings) and this is probably not something they want to see or get involved in. The lack of people posting in here the last couple of days proves that I think.

[TheLeet]

I've got to add that I'm very impressed with how much the members of secundi tried to help you and with how friendly and patient they were.
I must admit that I did my best to ignore you until this art theft thing cropped up. Not because I think you're a bad person but because you're obviously rather young and inexperienced and I just didn't want to have to constantly explain things and deal with your drama.
So many people went out of their way to help you and you're being really ungrateful by upsetting them like this.
I honestly hope that one day you'll understand that people weren't being rude to you. Until that day comes, it's probably for the best to do what you said you were going to do and to stay away.

[BabyKittenCandy]

I have to admit, I feel the same as The Leet. I avoided putting myself into the situation where I knew I would get frustrated but the rest of the community have been nothing but kind and patient with you, I hope you can see that one day.

[Sunchaser]

just my two cents, its a snail. Truthfullly, how much different can you make a snail that is simply done. I bet i could make a 50 x 50 snail and use the same colors but not look at these pics and then i would be considered a art theif because its similar.

Victoria has posted the link to the tutorial, she has been chastened let her be and perhaps just watch but truthfully i am the same way. When i do things online it looks like crap but when i do things by hand it looks better. Its why i like doing things by hand more so then thigns on the comp.

[indigowulf]

I dont think anyone doubts that she can draw better freehand then on the comp. But it does look like a rotated and slightly smudged version of the other, and its in the exact same colors, and she admited looking at theleets snail while making her own.

I was just curious how well the shells lined up when the images was flipped- it looks almost exactly like it was flipped and smudged. Even the fact that the inking along the "top" is thinned out in one spot suggests that it was smudged into a different shape then it started in.



Besides, I never asked for them to be 50X50, and the other art she submitted wasnt that size, so it seems way too coincedental that this was the same as the other snail in so many ways.

However, if she is leaving secundi, there's no need to stress over it. Theres no way anyone here can buy/sell possibly stolen art from her if she's not here, and no need for her to prove anything to anyone.

[YourLoveOnly]

She eventually posted the tutorial, I was bugging her before because she didn't post it. After she posted the link to the tutorial I haven't posted here again have I?

What bugs me about the snail is that she first said she never saw TheLeet's snail and after I told her there was no way it would be the same size, shape and color she admitted she used that snail to pick the colors. So that means she already lied about the art once. Art that looks very similair + someone lying about that art makes people think you stole it. If she told us immediately that she used it for the colors I may have felt the same way as you Sunchaser, but that's not the case, she said she never saw that image before.. I found that very hard to believe because it was the exact same size and colors and I turned out to be right.

Edit: aaaand what indigo just posted makes me even more convinced this is stolen art.

[indigowulf]

My biggest issue is that she was asked to post the link to prove she knew where the tutorial was that she supposedly spent enough time on that website to draw a dragon from it. I believe if someone honestly and truly spent the time needed to make a drawing from a tutorial, you'd at least have some idea what the website was. Especially with an easy name like "neon dragon".

She couldnt post the link until someone posted it FOR HER.  Which leads me to believe that the dragon was also not her work. Can I prove it? No. But when she was given the chance to prove that it WAS hers, she couldnt.

I honestly dont know why someone would delete thier history on a weekly basis "to save computer space" unless it was an excuse to cover a falsehood. What a tangled web, and all that. I havent deleted mine since I reformatted a while ago, and I surf all over the place. It really takes almost no space to store history- its cookies that kills you.

ETA-- Oh and, having both of those images open in gimp at the same time, I am able to pull hexes off each--- they are *exactly* the same color in several hexes, which tells me that she did exactly what I just did to make the animated comparison image- have one images open in one layer, and her image in another. She just had to use the eyedropper tool to copy the color from one to another. Serisouly, how likely is it for 2 non-copied images to both contain the hex 695a39 and just hapen to look alike down to the pixel size?

[Taruia]

I have merged Victoria's goodbye thread with this one. I believe it fits better here as we don't have an appropriate location for what the other topic was anywhere on Secundi.

[Sunchaser]

even though she is gone i would like to just say somthing on the point of the hex part.

I think that if someone likes a color others use just using the hex droper makes it easy to pull the same color, and she did say she was coping the colors.

However with the fliping of the images though it gives me a headache, i dont know. It looks like art theft but truthfully it was her first time and there arent that many ways to make snails go <.< hence what i would have done was warned and watch. but hey im not a mod and as such that opinon doesnt mean much especially now that she is gone :-

now i wanna draw snails <.< big snails though

[Silvanon]

A posting here doesn't actually imply anything about the MOD's opinions on whether it's art theft or not.  It just means someone in the community had a concern, and it has been put here for people to make their own decisions about.

[Sunchaser]

aw thanks for saying that silv i truly did not know that ^_^

[YourLoveOnly]

Thank you for moving the goodbye thread Taru.

[sera]

sera has avoided this thread because it is, essentially, beating a dead horse.  : /  i'm afraid that there will be some grr between some of the members, and hope that perhaps my post will help smooth some things? 

sera did not come from PI.  There were a lot of really different things here than anywhere else i hang out.  It took quite a bit of patience and  exploring and i know i still messed up a lot at first.  Snot, i still mess up now.  The community has always been kind and helpful, though at first people really did seem brusque.  Just sticking it out and continuing to try my hardest, however, has overcome that.  There does seem to be a tendency here-- though i would pretty much guarantee it's from a desire to be helpful-- that when someone messes up (generally new people), someone will point it out and then it seems like almost everyone else on the forum will jump in to reiterate. ^^;;  That makes it seem rather like the entire site is suddenly jumping down your throat for messing up, especially when you don't know anyone here yet.

i again desire to try to write a 'Secundi for the non-PI' sort of guide. ^^;;;

Neopets, i've noticed, lends itself to a. . . well, a rather immature way of dealing with others and other forums.  Gaia does the same.  *shrugs*  It seems probable and likely that people from such places have a harder time adjusting to Secundi.  Neopets also seems far less restrictive about art theft.

i've come from other adoptable places where there's been art theft; it is a difficult issue and one that's very hard to deal with.  Someone recently posted (i think on lj, though) about where art reference and art theft are divided.  Could i say whether or not Victoria was stealing others' art? No.  Was it suspicious how she began her time here? Yes.

i have to agree with YLO (and i believe i did so in a previous thread) where her tendency to leap from thread to thread trying to sell 'adoptables' without spending time developing any of them was very suspect.  Her tremendously different styles falls under the same boat.  Yes, the skill set used to draw on computer versus by hand are different, but, even when i was drawing with my mouse or when i first got my tablet there was still a similarity in my styles. 

Also, when people genuinely are trying to learn computer drawing, they will almost always post somewhere that it's an early attempt and to please be kind, not just suddenly try to sell it for rather high amounts. 

In the end, this topic shouldn't really matter to the community as a whole, since the cause of so much friction has moved on to new grounds better suited to her tastes and personality.  i would hate, however, for us to have any lingering anger between us because we don't necessarily see eye to eye on wot happened.

. . . ^^;;; And so says sera.  i hope this hasn't offended anyone.

[Victoria]

I'm sorry if i made anyone made or upset. I did not know they ways of Secundi so i was just selling for a profit but once i learned that i can't just go around selling pets i decided to put an end to it and wait til i create an adoptable which would be around for a while but that is never going to happen and i'm never going to get a taste of how it feels to create an adoptable for people to love and enjoy. I'm also sorry for making it seem like I'm calling everyone rude and mean i know you guys were just trying to help out I did not mean that everyone here is rude/mean. As you can tell i have not been here very long and i have not learn every bit of information there is here in Secundi but i tried my best to understand everything.

To conclude I'm sorry I have even came here and hurt so many that is why I'm keave so i will not cause pain to you or to myself.....

[YourLoveOnly]

Now that Victoria is back.. Does this need to be looked into? Probably not nice of me to bring this up again, but I am still convinced this is art theft to be honest and if that is proven to be the case I assume there will be some kind of action taken?

[Victoria]

She eventually posted the tutorial, I was bugging her before because she didn't post it. After she posted the link to the tutorial I haven't posted here again have I?

What bugs me about the snail is that she first said she never saw TheLeet's snail and after I told her there was no way it would be the same size, shape and color she admitted she used that snail to pick the colors. So that means she already lied about the art once. Art that looks very similair + someone lying about that art makes people think you stole it. If she told us immediately that she used it for the colors I may have felt the same way as you Sunchaser, but that's not the case, she said she never saw that image before.. I found that very hard to believe because it was the exact same size and colors and I turned out to be right.

Edit: aaaand what indigo just posted makes me even more convinced this is stolen art.

I don't think i had ever said i never seen TheLeet's snail first i started drawing my snail then i was browsing and found TheLeet's snail so i just use the colors from it and that was it i had already drew the lines and everything.

[Victoria]

Also is someone drew a horse and it happen to be in the same pose, and the same size i really dont think this would happen....

[Ryuukokoro]

Actually that has happened before, Victoria. Someone had a very popular horse adoptable and then it was found most of the poses were exact copies of some horse figurines. She disappeared and ran away when this was found out.

[Neocridders]

Personally, Victoria, to me art thieft is art thieft. Be it copying or tracing poses, or just taking too much referrence, or even claiming someone else's image as your own. It's not ok. I don't know if this is thieft, but be it a lesson that you must watch what you say online. You can't always get away with stuff even if it's over the Internet. Even if we can't see your face, you shouldn't lie to us. Or if you do, be prepared for everyone to not trust you.
I'm not saying you did anuthing at all.  But just because you could be on a whole different planet distance away, it doesn't mean doing something wrong will be gotten away with.

Honest is the best policy. If you took something or were referencing something, let us know. It's better to come forward now than later. If you did do anything at all.

But just be careful and don't look at other art too much when drawing art to sell. If you need help, ask. But if you have to ask if it's art thieft, it probably is. I hope this gets resolved soon.

[Victoria]

I'm telling the honest truth that i did not steal it i drew the art before i saw the picture of the other snail. I'm not the person to lie I'm a very honest person. I confuse to thing even before I'm found out plus i cant keep a lie locked up inside of me even for that long. If i did steal it i would have admitted it in the begging but i know i did not steal it only thing i can say i stole was the colors but that is all.

[Neocridders]

I am sorry to drag this up again, but I feel that even though this issue is 'minor' in a sense, Victoria is attempting to sell/trade artwork. I don't know if it is theift or not, but I think before any actual art exchanges including her occur, this should be settled.

[Leafy]

Isn't that what thieves do? Deny deny deny? I wouldn't trust her as far as I can throw her, but I doubt, unless she starts tracing again, she's going to get far. And if she does start tracing, we can usually tell pretty easily what she actually drew and what was traced or created from a tutorial that wasn't credited.

It's a dumb noob mistake, they come in here, see how OMG AWESOME we art, and want to be like us. Only way to do that without actually working for it is to trace and hope we don't figure it out, but there are some wonderfully smart people here, so anything slipping through the cracks isn't likely.

As far as punishment for theft, I think in this case, she's already been given a slap on the wrist, and forum wide embarrassment's a pretty hefty fine. But that's all just IMO, if Silv or Garney want to punt her, I'll bring the popcorn.

[TheLeet]

I really don't think that there's enough evidence to settle this case one way or the other.

Anyway, it's good that this thread is out there so people can read it and make up their own minds on the issue and decide if they want to have any dealings with her or not. I'm sure she'll be watched extra carefully whenever she tries to sell art.
I really don't think it's enough to be 100% certain that it's art theft although I'm more inclined towards saying that it is.

Anyway, I'm ok with her still being around as long as she stays away from my adoptable threads.

[Victoria]

Wow this was from long ago. I did draw the snail free hand but used the colors from the other snail. I wasn't aiming for it to look like it at the time I was a N00b artist and member. I'm sorry for causing this big fust and all this drama.

[Whimsy]

I'm sorry but any sort of art theft is art theft, and if they'ved done it once they've done it a million times. I've tried to keep my nose out but really the snails are dead ringers of each other. I know leet dosnt mind all that much, and truthfully it is a small thing but like I said its likely it could happen again.

I personally would not trust victoria around my art, she has some other questionable pieces on top of this and I'm quite afraid that either mine or others work will turn up else where.