[Quinsta] Overo and Lethal White - what to do?

[Silvanon]

Ok, so, Overo and Lethal White -

Currently all three types of Overo - Frame, Sabino and Splash - are run off the same two genes - O, which decides if any overo shows, and P, which decides which overo it will be.  If you breed an Overo to an Overo, you risk getting an OO, or Lethal White baby. 

In real life, the different Overos aren't the same gene.  So, for example, in real life you can have a horse showing both Frame Overo and Sabino Overo at the same time.  In real life, Lethal White Overo is associated only with Frame Overo.  Lethal White babies always die, painfully, within a few days of birth, unless they are recognized and euthanized before things get too painful for them.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_white_syndrome

Now, there have been Lethal White foals born pretty much every season since Quinsta started, but no one has ever tried to claim them until this past season, when for some reason suddenly multiple were claimed.  I wasn't willing to actually pretend the foals somehow survived and grew to adulthood, that defeats any purpose to including Lethal White in the Quinsta genetics at all, and also goes against what I'd previously told people happens with Lethal White.  But people got hurt when they got a foal memorial instead of a breedable Quin.  All in all it has me thinking about if I should make a change to the system.

Options I'm considering:

Option 1 - Keep everything just how it is.  Less work for me, but people in the future might still get upset if they claim a Lethal White & get a memorial.

Option 2 - Keep the O & P genes functioning the same, but drop the possibility of Lethal White - let OO be just like a normal overo.

Option 3 - Replace the O & P genes with three different genes for the different Overos, keep Lethal White only for the Frame Overo gene.  Let people decide if they want to claim a Lethal White Foal and receive a foal memorial.

Option 4 - Replace the O & P genes with three different genes for the different Overos, keep Lethal White only for the Frame Overo gene.  Say that anyone who breeds a Lethal White automatically has to have that as one of their claims and receive a foal memorial to remind them not to ever again risk breeding a foal that's doomed to a painful death.

Option 5 -  Replace the O & P genes with three different genes for the different Overos, drop the possibility of Lethal White, foals with two dominate Frame Overo genes be just like a normal overo quin.

Option 6 - Some other option I haven't thought of yet, that you explain out in the comments.


None of these options (with the possible exception of #6) would be too difficult to implement.  So, what does Secundi say?

[Ravvana]

I think having the three overos on different genes would be really complicated (at least for us as end users) to adjust to, redo our Quin's genetic strings, replan breeding goals involving some type of overo, etc. I know I'm working on breeding a frame Mustang and the key stud in that project has sabino, so that would bring me to a crashing halt. Unless I'm misunderstanding.

With Stable, I grow lethal white foals and just leave them sterile, but I'm not entirely happy with that either. I'm leaving it for simplicity's sake since breeding is not so active in Stable anyway.

I say keep it as is. People now know the consequences of claiming a lethal white... and at least they get a little memorial. I don't feel that two lethal white claims is enough of a reason to revamp your whole system --- but that's just my $.02.

[Silvanon]

*nods*  Breaking Overo into three genes would certainly affect most projects currently involving Overo.  On the other hand it would make it possible to breed Quinsta with multiple visible Overo patterns, which could be really fun.

[Ryuukokoro]

With Stable, I grow lethal white foals and just leave them sterile, but I'm not entirely happy with that either. I'm leaving it for simplicity's sake since breeding is not so active in Stable anyway.

I voted option 6. This is what my suggestion would be for the Quinsta, and honestly I thought this was what was implemented already. It was the only reason I offered my lethal white to someone in trade, because I thought it meant a sterile white adult. (My faulty memory thought that if the foal was stillborn the form would say 'stillborn.' I thought that's what happened to me long ago when I bred two overo together by accident and the foal died. So I thought lethal white meant alive but sterile.)

I would never have offered to let someone claim one of my foals if I thought there would be no Quin as a result. I feel really terrible that my mistake cost someone one of their Quin slots this season.

Even though the Quin is a breeding adoptable, many people collect them just to admire their images and I think a sterile adult image would be a good solution to this issue without a lot of adjusting the system.

[red_uni387]

I was also under the impression that lethal white foals would be colored, just unable to breed. So I'd like to see what Rav does for The Stable. They're all white, so it makes them seem like ghosts anyway

[Ravvana]

I like Ryuu's idea too, actually.

[BabyKittenCandy]

I would rather for the sake of Genetic strings and redoing them all that it stayed the same. To me, Lethal White would be just that, Lethal. The foal Dies. I think just making them sterile would kinda defeat the breeding thrill of the Quinsta and take away some of the genetic reality that I for one enjoy so much.

Just my thoughts...

[Pinkshadow]

I voted stay the same.

I think it's people own mistake if they breed LW foals, and i think it's kinda sweet that they get an memorial if they claim it. aand tbh i think you already do SO much awesomeness with this adoptable that i don't think that you should get extra work because of two claims on LW foals.

Just my thoughts

[Winged]

I voted option 4, but i'd be happy with 3 or 1 too. I love the idea of having seperate overo genes, though i'm not totally sure how that would with overos already out there. Lethal white should be just that, lethal. I think it should be at the persons own risk to breed a leathal white, and certainly they shouldn't be able to have a foal born.
ETA: However i don't think it should be something desirable to breed for either.

[Wildfilly94]

Id go with option 4 because I HATE the thought of those poor foals dying from peoples carelessness. To me, quin breeding is treated as if real. Id be so mad at myself if I bred a lethal white foal because I know the pain they deal with.
But sometimes, people make mistakes and dont know the consequences so making them claim it even though they never meant to claim it may be harsh.
Lethal white is NOT fun or cool. so what the horse is white. Do You Know what pain those 'awesome and gorgeous' foals go through? Thats not fair to want to breed one because their pretty.
I like the realisticness of quin breeding and taking away lethal white options will encourage them to breed more.
Its something that NEEDS to be discouraged and known about, so keeping the lethal white stillborn foals as an option will help this.

[Ryuukokoro]

I have to strongly disagree with that. This is NOT real horse breeding. No creature is suffering from two Quin with overo genes being bred together. These are digital images colored on a computer. Yes, part of the fun is to pretend it's real and I do that too, but in the end it is not, that's simple fact. As Sil herself pointed out, if this were in real life, then only breeding an overo frame to an overo frame would result in lethal white foals. So it's actually very unrealistic in the amount of lethal white foals being born in this game.

If people want to breed two overos for a chance that the baby will be born white and will live, that should be something a person is allowed to do. IF that's the way we decide to play the game. (Although I doubt this is happening, despite some people in this thread implying that it is. I don't know of anyone who has bred two overo Quin together hoping for a white living foal. I think it happens by accident because people don't remember to check for overo genes. That's what happened to me anyway.)

As of right now, I don't even know Sil's process on overo x overo breeding. I don't know if there's a chance at a normal baby, a chance at a white living baby, or always 100% stillborn, or what. I don't know the percentage chance for any of the options either. Like I said, I was under the assumption you either got a stillborn foal or a white sterile one. (I realize now I only assumed that because that's how The Stable and The Kennel did their breedings.)

We need to step back and remember this is a game. Sometimes the rules get confused and some people aren't clear on how the game should go, and sometimes when things like this happen these rules get adjusted. That's how these things go.

But personally, I don't like how things are now. I don't think claiming a lethal white Quin and getting nothing but a Remembrance in return makes the game any more fun or 'thrilling' for the players. And the point of a game is to have fun, right? I don't think the people who claimed the two lethal white foals were expecting this to be the result, which is why feelings got hurt. Which is why my suggestion would be for the sterile white Quin to be the result of the breeding, from now on.

A balance between realism and fun has always been the way of the Quin shop anyway, and I think this is a good compromise which keeps in the spirit of both of those things.

[BabyKittenCandy]

Im not trying to ruffle feathers and I can understand the disappointment of not actually getting a pretty quin but with the description saying Lethal i personally would automatically assume that means the foal dies, maybe it died after being born but still dies. And if I was still in any doubt, I would have asked either openly or via pming Silv to make sure, but That is just me.

yes, its a game but I think people enjoy the realism of the breeding with the quin, I certainly do and Its fun learning about the genes. Seperating out the overo genes for me would be extremely confusing and I imagine a lot of work for Silv.

Anyhow, I have voted and appologise if my comments upset anyone, that isnt the aim.

[Silvanon]

Ok, thanks everyone for your votes and input, I really appreciate it.  I can tell by what's been posted here that people weren't nearly as aware as I thought they were about what it meant to get a Quinsta Lethal White foal.  I apologize to everyone who was unaware, I would have rectified the situation long before now if it had occurred to me that I needed to.

It's not an option I'd thought up last night, but I've finally figured out what I'd like to do.  I'm going to ask Ethendil to use a little magic on Overo x Overo breedings to make sure that at least one "o" is always passed.  It's not going to affect any current breeding percentages other than the simple guarantee that Overo x Overo won't ever produce OO.  This was a simple one-letter switch of the code, which I have already implimented.

I'll be contacting the two who claimed Lethal White foals this season to see if they'd like to take advantage of a bit of time-traveling magic to turn their foals into Oo foals.

This is the solution I feel best about, and I hope you'll all be able to support me in it.  Thanks again everyone!

[BabyKittenCandy]

Whatever works best for you Silv is wonderful. If you are happy, I am

[Pinkshadow]

Whatever works best for you Silv is wonderful. If you are happy, I am

What she said

[Wildfilly94]

Im not trying to ruffle feathers and I can understand the disappointment of not actually getting a pretty quin but with the description saying Lethal i personally would automatically assume that means the foal dies, maybe it died after being born but still dies. And if I was still in any doubt, I would have asked either openly or via pming Silv to make sure, but That is just me.

yes, its a game but I think people enjoy the realism of the breeding with the quin, I certainly do and Its fun learning about the genes. Seperating out the overo genes for me would be extremely confusing and I imagine a lot of work for Silv.

Anyhow, I have voted and appologise if my comments upset anyone, that isnt the aim.

I agree with everything here 100% , and also apologize if my opinions and feelings hurt anyone.

[Wildfilly94]

@Silv; Whatever you wish to do works fine with me. ^^

So does this mean there will never be a Lethal White then? They'll always be Oo, whether its splash, frame, sabino, etc?

[Silvanon]

So does this mean there will never be a Lethal White then? They'll always be Oo, whether its splash, frame, sabino, etc?

Yes, any baby that inherits an 'O' is magically guaranteed to get an'o' for the second gene.  'OO' is no longer possible to get.

[Wildfilly94]

Ahh, okay. ^^