Discussion: Whatever Happened to Certs?

[Ryuukokoro]

I'd like to start a discussion, and Secundi seems to be the best place to have it.

I've noticed there seems to be a new thing in adoptables lately. More and more shops seem to be dropping the practice of using certs, which for many years as far as I know was always a standard for all adoptables (at least, in the places I've been collecting, anyway).

I'll admit I've been fairly limited in the different adoptable websites I have experience with: PonyIsland, Secundi (which came from PonyIsland) and a few others. But definitely with PonyIsland, when I was active there it was VERY rare, almost unheard of, to have a shop without a cert. I haven't been there in over a year, so I don't know if that's still the way there, but I was there for three years so I am fairly confident when I say certs were more than standard for shops there.

When Secundi was created, the practice of using certs for all adoptables in the forums continued as people from PonyIsland came over (with the exception of the Secundi official agencies, which dropped the certs in exchange for a personalized page that displays the pets you own).

I have noticed there's a new adoptable site/forum, Garden Terrace, which seems to specialize in adoptable shops that don't have certs. That is one of several reasons I haven't joined. (Although the main reason is, I just don't have time to stay active on a new site.) Nothing against the shops or the site itself, it's just a personal preference of mine. I've also noticed the art there is mostly small creatures, so perhaps the idea is that the cert isn't needed for small, less detailed art images.

Now of course I realize certs take a lot of time to type and update, and it's difficult when owners trade and/or rename their adoptables. Getting rid of certs eliminates that time consuming chore and leaves the shop runner more time to make more adoptables and hold more events. So I definitely understand the appeal of dropping the tradition of adoptable certs. But personally for me, I don't know if the pros outweigh the cons.

Certificates, to me, have always been important in adoptable shops. Firstly they identify who has won/bought/bribed/etc. the particular individual adoptable image. Which is important for the fans of the shop, to be able to say "This is mine, I worked for it, and here is the proof, my name is right there." But more importantly, a cert usually has a line with the name of the artist of the original art, and the name of the shop owner. In an online world where art theft is so prevalent, the lack of certs is a little alarming to me. It's so easy to grab an image with no watermark/certificate/etc. and claim it as your own.

Now of course, I know Secundi has dropped the use of certs with its official agencies. Because each Secundi user gets their own personalized Pet page, which hosts all the agency adoptables they've received, that particular need of the cert is all taken care of. It's true though that the images don't have any sort of watermark or art credit, making it a lot easier for art theft to occur. If Secundi was more popular I would be concerned with people taking the images (especially high quality artwork like the Quin) and using it on their own websites without any credit to the original artist. Perhaps it's already happening and we haven't caught it yet.

So, anyway, that's what I've been observing lately, and I felt the need to share my thoughts on the pros and cons of dropping certs from adoptables. Thoughts anyone? Agree with me? Think I'm being nit-picky? Please feel free to (politely of course) share any of your thoughts and opinions on the topic. I'm not singling out any particular adoptable, nor am I claiming "my way is better than yours."
I'm just bringing up a practice I've noticed is getting more and more popular among shop owners, and wondered if anyone else noticed this and feels the same way.

Thanks for your time. ^^

[PonyMama]

I have the same feeling, I prefer my adoptables to have certs, this helps me keep track of their names. 

Now one of my things was I hate certing babies and things that get traded a lot, and would prefer to cert only adult images where possible, saving me time as I run many shops by myself, and recerting and keeping track of where babies are and re-certing and re-certing can get annoying to no end.  However i am Pro cert for adult images for the sheer fact that is the end image and I liek how it looks.

I think even having part of my cert for the orlaya for their agency images has helped me keep that, as I am still very pro cert there too, and I have tried a few ways to go about keeping some of that with the shop, even though it has the status of agency.

This won't keep me from collecting one with no cert, but I do prefer them, even if it is just like the lupines, and has name and owner under the image, nothing special, but let's others know

[Laviee]

Hmm... I know that large sites like Gaia and PI use certs, but I don't know, maybe it's because I always go on less populated forums/sites so there was never a need for certs. Everyone knows who owns which creature, and you can always be sure no one would steal art. For me, I think that having certs kind of take attention away from the adopt. I don't know, it just feels like it's cluttering up the image a bit.

[livi]

I've been into adoptables for about 10 years now and... honestly I have always hated certs. 10 years ago, almost every adoptable was given its own page with its stats and the like separate from the image and certs were pretty much unheard of. Then sites like Gaia and PI showed up and certs became the norm. I think certs are usually all kinds of ugly (even certs that have been laboriously done with lots of nice detail and skill and that actually look nice on their own) and seriously detracting from the critter image and I'm not so fond of certed pets as I am uncerted pets. So yeah I'm pretty much with Laviee, I like smaller communities and have always thought that certs are cluttering and detracting.

With my Corau, there's really no need for certs since they're all individually drawn, I keep track of their names/owners/etc on a list on my website which is accessible to everyone, they aren't tradable and everyone should be putting them up on some sort of page/thread to keep track of their information anyway. Plus I think putting a cert on them would make them lose a lot of their personality/charm.

As for art theft... I've never had my art stolen before and I doubt I ever will since my art is still kind of fail. So I don't think its ever been an issue for me.

[Leafy]

Same :\ I'm used to the days when we'd build these sometimes terrible little websites on Geocities or angelfire devoted to the adoptables we stalked, and we'd proudly display them, their stats, and sometimes their offspring too. It was an extreme act of love lol and showed your devotion. Certs, even the well done ones don't really add anything to the image aside from say I belong to (name here), which is just as easy to keep on an owner's list and makes the critter easier to trade x_x I personally *hate* having to go back and edit certs.

[Sparki]

Haha... I was just noticing this Ryuu, and now I'm rethinking my cert and considering minimizing it. I think certs are cool myself because they add atmosphere and can set up the general idea of a "world" with just the background, but things just aren't trending that way. If anything is added, it seems like usually (at this point in time) it's just a simple solid-colored shape.

It's interesting to read the other points of view on that, though.

[Sinister Pink]

To be honest I feel that certs are a total neccessity to someone who doesn't want their art stolen, as just this week I have come accross some absolutely horiffic examples of art theft, where the thief actually admits it, however they have the cheek to use the term *inspired by* in their credits. Disgusting!!

When I have researched why they get away with this, it's basically the situation where in order to take it up legally the artist has to bring a case, which costs money. Artists as a rule usually aren't the richest people in the world so someone steals your art that has considerably more resources than you...how can you fight it.

To me certs help that, mine will be as complex as possible with hidden watermarks and all sorts of things I have learnt in my proffession to stop someone stealing your art. I also find that if I paint my art much MUCH bigger than it actually is, then shrink it down not only does it mean I get a lot of small detail in there, it also means that if anyone tries to steal it, legally I *have* all the bigger High definition images, as proof it belongs to me, as well as being able to sneak very secret tiny watermarks in there. Also if anyone does steal it, usually because they are a naff artist there work imeadiatley looks like a really shoddy copy.


Before I release my adoptables I will also be seeking legal counsel as to how better protect my work and my copyright.

Sarah

[YourLoveOnly]

I have actually been around a ton of other smaller sites in the past. The "old" ways involved paging pets on websites and writing little stories for them with their info and everything listed. So much more personal and I really like it.

I think certs are mainly there to prevent art theft so I understand why sites like PI and gaia work with them, we've all seen art theft happen on PI (remember Punk-N and that massive pixel art theft thing.. Pixel art doesn't usually get certed so it's easier to steal, which is why a lot of pixel artists now watermark everything and put a big part of their stuff behind a paid member-only area)'

I personally prefer no certs, so I don't mind this at all. For Panda Shrimps the certs are going to be dropped soon, since I don't feel like they add much, they list simple name and owner (and gender, but since each gender has a different pose that isn't even needed) and people still need to view the photobucket description to see what markings their pet has, so it's just way easier to add ALL the info into a description instead of part there and part on the cert (tried to put it all on a cert, but it's way too cluttered). That said, there are shops that have very pretty cert that don't bug me. In some cases a pretty cert can add to a pet in which case I don't mind at all, but in a lot of other cases I find it simply distracting, the pet would be just as beautiful or even more beautiful on its own.

Like Sparki said, those certs with a nice background that kinda add to the world of that adoptable are nice. I love adoptables with a backstory and if a cert shows this that's wonderful. But a lot of them have a plain simple box with info that is just there to show the info (and again, protect you from art theft) and I would like it without. I know for my Panda Shrimps I just find their cert annoyingly distracting, even though it's simple and doesn't catch your eye much, I like the pet better on its own. So yeah, for me the main reasons to use certs are either for art theft reasons on a bigger site like PI (would never do something without a cert there) or to really add to the adoptable.

[TheLeet]

I like certs in general. I mean, sometimes certs can be pretty hideous but a well made cert adds so much to an adoptable. Not only information wise but also looks wise.
I felt a bit weird uploading all the Noms without cert because they seemed so naked to me XD

[Kadana Sorano]

I'm definitely pro cert.  I love seeing certs with my critters.  Even if the cert isn't "attached" to the critter but maybe made up as a little card separately that can be placed beside, under, over, whatever the critter on whatever page I show it off on, or maybe upload the cert card into my PB right beside where I uploaded the critter. 

Frankly, when I see a new adopt, I immediately look for a cert now.  And more often then not if they don;t have one of some kind, then I won;t stalk the adopt.  There are a few exceptions of course, as with anything.  And sadly I have started stalking some before realizing there would be no cert.  Just so excited over the pretty adopt, that I dove right in without checking first.  (Gryphions as an example) and later became really annoyed and depressed when I learned I would be getting no cert with them.  (I was so happy when Gryphions became an agency, because it resolved that issue for me).

And then there are the adoptable that I adore, and they have a cert, so I happily start stalking them.  Only to later have them decide that certing things for us is too much trouble or such, and stop doing it.  Then I have to decide if I even want to continue to stalk the adoptable or not.  On the one hand, it is their adoptable shop and they have the right to run it however they please.  I understand that fully, since I run one myself.  but on the other hand, I can't help how it makes me feel.  Namely tricked, and cheated, and very very dismayed and disappointed.  And even if I do decide to continue to adopt form this shop, I will always thereafter feel a little squidgy about trusting them.

Another point, and it also is related to trust I guess, is that mistakes happen.  Whether computer error or human error, things happen.  I've had a few adopts where all the uploaded files wound up mixed up/missing.  I'm not very technical, so I have no clue how that happens.  But there were no certs, and the owners for whatever reason hadn't kept records of whose animals were whose.  So they had all these adopt images, and no way to tell who they belonged to, except by asking users and trusting them to be honest.  And not everyone is.. I lost quite a few adopts because there was no proof that they were actually mine.  And yes, I do have trust issues, but I've been burned often enough that I feel I'm not being 'entirely' paranoid.

As I said, there are exceptions.  I will stalk some adopts even with no cert, it depends a lot on how much I like the adopt lines, how well I know the shop owner, and how much I feel I can trust in their competence.  Again to use Gryphions as an example, when I first started stalking them I didn't know Neo very well.  I knew her somewhat, but not well.  And I didn't have any clue about what kind of a shop owner she would be.  As much as I love the Gryphion lines, if I had realized before jumping in that there was no cert I wouldn't have adopted.  However, I am happy that I did now, because I love my Gryphions, and Neo has proved to be a very nice shop owner.  Any issues I had were minor, and she managed to address them very fast.  So this is one exception.

Another exception is if an adopt is created, with the full intent to become an agency on Secundi.  Here, is a time when I can see not using certs.  The certs will need to be removed from each adopt before it's uploaded to the site, so I can understand a shop owner just by passing that step entirely, to save them time and effort whenever they become an agency.  It isn't how I would prefer it to be done, and it's not how I do my own shop, but it is understandable to me, and while I will still feel a little uneasy and long for a nice cert, I can over look it and still enjoy following the adopt knowing that one day they will be an agency.

I also have to say, even on Secundi site agencies, I do miss the certs.  When the Kennel moved over here and stripped the certs away, I mourned their loss (and still do).  I loved seeing the little doggy house with my dogs, and their food dish and such there with them.  it added a bit towards realism, gave them personality somehow.  So even though an adopt becomes an agency, I still miss the certs.  It is one of the things I'm struggling with emotionally for my own shop, because it was always meant to become an agency.  I planned it that way, and set it up so the removal of certs will be as simple and quick (I saved everyone's critters twice, once uncerted and once again certed).  But.. I like my certs, and honestly am dreading having to stop using them.

[WolfgangTlouey]

Having been cyberpetting on and off for over 10 years now, I've always thought of certificates as a relatively new thing... lol! But that's because I'm all cyberdusty and set in my ways... As I understand it, they really started at Gaia. They were practically unheard of for my first few years of cyberpetting.

Personally, they seem like a necessary evil with larger cyberpet sites. I think they are helpful for pets with 'stats' so that you don't have to make those darned tables on your webpages and whatnot to keep track of everything... and as SinisterPink said, they definitely are a bit of a deterrent for cyberpet art theft.

[Sinister Pink]

I actaully have plans where the certs for my creatures will be pretty darn useful, as on there will be a LOT of information you need.
As well as me being able to add a touch of uniqueness to each and every pet you adopt, as although I make sure I template well *thats whats taking the time*

I still like to add a little time, love and attention to every single pet I make, to me it makes them special, gives them personality, and even now when I go thorough back copies of pets I have adopted out every single one I still remember and have a fondness for.

Sarah

[Deekkru]

There are so many wonderful reasons to have certs, even if they are more work.

A pretty way of keeping track of stats, it gives the owner a sense of pride in saying "hey, look what I got!" (I think someone mentioned this one), and they're a huge contributor in preventing art theft. Of course, I've never seen adoptables without certs until fairly recently, so I may just prefer what I know, but you have to admit there's a lot going for them.

As for anyone who declares certs to be too much work, that's simply ridiculous. Just do what I do - put any stats on a website, and keep PSDs of everything. It takes a few seconds to update.

Of course, with my latest adoptable, that's not quite the case. They don't have stats, or any info above owner/name, but they are animated. So I set up the cert in a way that it still has a nice background, but the text area is surrounded by white. That way, if I need to change a name or owner, I can just type the text up separately and lay it over the animated piece, instead of redeveloping 15+ layers.

Quick, efficient, and much more fascinating than a cat in a white box.

[YourLoveOnly]

For me the amount of work in recerting is the deleting and then reuploading the new file on photobucket, but that is photobucket's fault for being slow and full of bugs XD

I usually do cert my adoptables, but for Panda Shrimps.. Well, I only really ever made a cert for them because I wanted them to be on both PI and Secundi and that way they looked the same everywhere. PI has too many art thiefs for me to consider not having a cert there. But I am not running them on PI anymore and I have every intend of making them an Agency, so that's my reason for removing the certs. They were only plain boxes with a name and owner anyway so it shouldn't make a big difference XD

[Goddesss]

Haha... I was just noticing this Ryuu, and now I'm rethinking my cert and considering minimizing it. I think certs are cool myself because they add atmosphere and can set up the general idea of a "world" with just the background, but things just aren't trending that way. If anything is added, it seems like usually (at this point in time) it's just a simple solid-colored shape.

It's interesting to read the other points of view on that, though.

Nooooo I love you certs dont touch them. XD

I like adoptys with certs better.  Like Kadana I tend not to collect them if they dont.

[Neocridders]

My first ever adoptable on PI was called 'Neocridders'. They were foxy rabbit squirrely things made primarily in mspaint.
They had no cert except the white background and 'Username's Creature ' on it, with the username being the owner and the creature being the name of it.

I never liked certing. I just think most certs look terrible with the adoptable. Sometimes they look better and enhance the adopt, but i feel many times it just takes away. It's hard to find a cert that goes with all colors/designs of the adoptables yet doesn't take hours upon hours.
I was trying to start Gryphions on PI long ago, but sadly, amoung other things, i could not find the right cert for them. Nothing looked right.

And now I love that gryphions don't need a cert. They are an agency. From the start I knew they would hopefully be an agency at some point, so I decided to just scrap the cert idea. I hate certing,  and I couldn't find a good cert anyway.

So that's why. Personally, a good/bad cert can make or break the adoptable. If it looks bad with the adoptable, they whole adoptable looks cheap! And even  if it's the best art ever, if the cert can't enhance  it, I say don't bother.

[Sparki]

Haha, thanks Goddesss! =)

I do remember when I used to create little webpages for adopted pets (at the time before a certain author went crazy and started alienating all her fans, it was specifically dragons based on ones from a book series that I liked) and for a lot of them you had to have the webpage created before they would even give you a pet.

It was definitely fun at the time, but I like the really pretty, creative certs people come out with now. (The Kennel ones are a great example of really adding to the adoptable, in my opinion)

[Solistia]

Hmmm, for me, I grew up in adoptables on Gaia and PI...so I always felt adoptables NEEDED a cert, like it was a requirement or something. But in Finding xenon's gryphons, and then Garden Terrace, I have learned the freedom that is "not certing" 8D

If I could, no adoptable I make would have a cert. It's too much work. You may say lazy, but for AAA it's not a simple matter of just updating a cert, but also website coding too, making a preview image, resizing the image on the cert, correcting information if it's wrong and reuploading....honestly it's a super pain in my rear (I have actually hired someone to be dedicated to AAAs certing now |D I have never felt such a burden lift as I did the first time I realized I did not have to cert immediately after finishing an image 8D)

For pets that don't take a lot of work, and are mass colored and given out, I can see certing not being a big deal. But with my work at AAA (and Strays on GT), I actually spend hours at a time and only produce a couple adoptables (full custom Strays take about an hour each, Adolescent or Young Adult Companions can take anywhere from 1.5-3 hours each). After spending hours on drawing, I really don't want to go through all the work of certing afterwards =____= I'm already tired and worn out.

But, I think it's a personal preference thing. I don't like certs, that's me. Kadana really likes certs, that's her. And I have no problem with that :3

So I am very much "Cert Freedom" right now. I still put a watermark behind all uncerted artwork to protect my art, but that's it :3

[Silvanon]

The adoptable community where I started out was pretty much all hand-drawn traditional media unique pets.  A traditional-media cert is what would have fit with the style of the pets, but you can't exactly edit a traditional cert if the pet gets rehomed or whatnot.  But, more to the point, the idea of certs as part of the image simply didn't exist.  People were expected to put the pets on a webpage that listed the information about them and linked to where they came from, and if the adopter failed to do that, you took the pet back and found it a better home.  As an agency owner I've always kept detailed online publicly available parents lists of who has adopted what pets, and that's still my preferred method.  I like that I and everybody else can access the official information on who has what pet, what the pedigree is, and so forth.  I don't know, I still sometimes get the vibe from some certed agencies that the cert is there so that the agency owner doesn't have to bother knowing who they've sold what to, and so their adopters can be lazy about making a home for the pet.

As for art theft, well, I have had it happen to me on a few occasions.  What stopped it was either contacting the person (generally a clueless grade schooler) and gently explaining about copyrights and how the horse with a new mane scribbled on is still a derivative work copyrighted to the original artist, and requesting they stop.  Or in one stubborn case, contacting the person's hosting company and having their site taken down for copyright infringement.  A cert might make it a bit more obvious that the person is taking someone else's work and doing a poor job editing it, but I'm rather dubious that it would actually make those people not thieve in the first place.  Either way, I'm just not willing to give in and let fear of art theft dictate what my art looks like.  *shrugs*

[Sinister Pink]

  Report them to their hosting company!!, what an absolutely fabulous idea!!! Thanks Silv!!

I generally find that if you don't want to cert providing you make yours big enough to get a huge amount of detail in, then shrink em down, it pretty much stops people being able to steal them and sell on as an adoptable.

Sadly it doesn't stop them from stealing it, and making a cafepress shop!, and for me until I actually was walking in town and saw someone ambling past with my artwork on their chest, had no idea it happened. It's also hard to stop, because no sooner do you get one store closed another one opens and then you have to find it or get a tip off.

I made my peace with it a long time ago, as long as they aren't selling on my adoptables then I can live with it, does it irk me that some lazy cretin is making money from my artwork, you betcha!! but
fighting a losing battle is not my cup of tea either.

Sarah

[Sparki]

Wow Pink, that's awful. Unfortunately I think it happens quite a bit since it's so easy to do that on sites like Cafepress. It must have been a crazy shocking moment to walk by someone with your art on their shirt, I can't even imagine.

[Sinister Pink]

Lol the first time I actually had to sit down, since then I have been to peoples house and seen stuff on coffee cups and one memorable time was given a mousemat with my entire artwebsite banner on it as a gift!!

Funny thing is the friend who gave me it was double chuffed as he assumed he'd bought it from "my" cafepress shop, boy was he mad when I told him I didn't have any cafepress shops!!

Sarah

[Neocridders]

To be honest, I'd love to see that image so if I see anyone with it I might be able  to let you know. Unless you are done fighting that battle.
That's terrible.

[xenon]

For me... It really just depends on the style of the pet and such. For templated pets, I do prefer seeing a cert. I don't have any solid reasons as to why that is, but it is.

For unique drawn, though, generally I prefer to not have a cert. For my Gryphons, if I had to try and make a cert that would fit with each and every one, my head would quite literally explode and the overall image would just be way too crowded. There's my aesthetic perspective, but I also tend to go by the old-school train of thought with them - they're really intended to be paged on a website in that style. Since most people don't do that anymore, I'm working on getting a nice database put together. This is proving to be way more difficult than I had anticipated, as I have one, but the general public can't look at it. Which is way crazy frustrating. So I guess I need a plan b, siiiigh.