So I can't even begin to understand horse genetics...

[Ryuukokoro]

Okay so I usually just breed two pretty horsies together and enjoy whatever the baby turns out to look like, but I think with my Quin mare I want to actually try to figure out some genetics. Only problem is, I go cross eyed looking at Ravanna's helpful Stable Horses genetic page! @_@ Can someone put it in two-year-old terms for me? XD

I have here a beautiful Flaxen Chestnut Sabino Overo mare. If I can't figure out any genetics I'll just go with a Breeder's Choice option, but I'm going to try to figure out some things first. ^^



So according to Rav's page.... this girl has to have the 'ff' gene cuz she's flaxen, right? And she has the 'ee' since she's chestnut? (Maybe...? Ryuu's head hurts from trying to figure out those boxes... *pokes them with a stick*)

Looking at the Quin Clysdale studs in existence, we have a couple options. Most of them are Bay (with or without splash/overo) and one is Black and one is Chestnut.

So... please confirm or deny my attempts at figuring out these breeding boxes on Rav's page lol. If my chestnut mare is paired with a black male, the baby could be bay, black, or brown.

If she's paired with a bay, the baby could be ....? Okay I have no idea.

And if she's paired with a chestnut, the baby would be a chestnut as well, for sure?

Did I get ANY of this right? XD Anyone's information would be very helpful here lol.

[PonyMama]

can't help you, I look at the boxes, get migraine. then walk away.
I pretty much don't bother trying anymore

good luck though

[Ryuukokoro]

lol thanks PM. (You have the only black boy! He's stunning!)

[PonyMama]

he is my only black horse, and when the clydes came out I looked for a black horse

[Leafy]

Also, be mindful of lethal white when breeding <_< You have to take that into consideration too as opposed to just breeding for colors (which is how it was quite possibly created in the first place)

[Keilin Alyr]

I'm rather new to horse genetics, so this may not be fully accurate, but from what I can gather, your girl has this genetic code:

-- ee cc rr dd gg ww ll -- tt Oo Pp ff -- --

ee means chestnut, ff means flaxen, all that good stuff. But I take it you want that agouti gene figured out. As Leafy said though, be careful of breeding to another overo, as OO is lethal in horses.

Paired with Rosewood's Rising Sun, you'll definitely get chestnut foals: ee x ee. Though you'll get to see if Rising Sun carries flaxen. I'm actually breeding my bay mare to him to see if she carries Ee.

Paired with PM's Zuberi, you have -- x aa. The foal has to inherit one of those recessive genes from Zuberi, so if your foal isn't chestnut, it will be Aa (bay), Ata (brown), or aa (black). If the foal does end up chestnut, we know Zuberi carries Ee. =)

If your foal is black (aa): your mare carries -a. I'd continue to breed with a black stud until she throws a foal that isn't black. If she never does, it might be safe to conclude she's aa.

If your foal is brown (Ata): your mare either carries At- or she is AAt, which means she is brown or bay (the AAt) under her chestnut coloration.

If your foal is bay (Aa): your mare has to carry A- and she's a bay underneath the chestnut.

[PonyMama]

Did you understand that Ryuu? 
I didn't, but good job explaining, I am sure somewhere it made sence but once horse coats got thrown about I was lost

I am hopeless!

[Willow]

I'm glad I'm not the only one D:
I've tried so much, but every time I feel I get near, something baffles me and I give up :/
~Willow

[Keilin Alyr]

Okay, let me see if I can break this down a bit further. =)

Chestnut masks all other basic colors, so we can't be sure what color Ryuu's mare is underneath the Chestnut until we breed her. For sake of simplicity, those basic colors are Bay, Brown, and Black. Bay is dominant over Brown which is dominant over Black. A- is dominant over At- is dominant over a-.

Your Zuberi is actually a good stud to test for hidden agouti/base coloration, because his are known: aa. His foals must inherit "a" from their father, and since that is recessive, their mother will determine their color.

I'll use my Bay mare Morcha'Tupten as an example mother for this Punnett square, since her base color is known, whereas Ryuu's mare is an unknown. Her genetics are on top, Zuberi's on the side:

    A          -
a   Aa        -a
a   Aa        -a

My apologies if that dash gets confusing, since I don't know what she carries. I'll get to that in a bit. But that square shows four potential offspring between Morcha and Zuberi. Two of them are Aa. They are Bays, since A is a dominant gene. Half of her potential offspring will inherit her dominant coloration.

The other half could be Aa, AtA, or aa. If those foals are Black (aa), I know she is Aa because that is the only way she could breed aa foals. Likewise, if they are Brown (Ata), I know she is AAt, because they inherited (At) from their mother and (a) from their father.

Of course, she could be bred to Zuberi 100 times and never produce anything but Bay (Aa) foals. In that case, it would be likely that she is AA. Her foals can never inherit anything but A from her, no matter what color the father was.

Does this help at all? If it doesn't, I can take a look at the foal if Ryuu decides to breed her mare to Zuberi, then give some further advice to weasel out those potential hidden color recessives. =)

[Keilin Alyr]

I don't know whether this will clear up my first post or make it more confusing, but it can't hurt. Ryuu's mare's agouti genes on top, Zuberi's on the side:

    -          -
a   -a        -a
a   -a        -a

Doesn't look like much help, does it? It's all theory right now, and we'll have to see what the foals look like. Barring Chestnut foals, which would mean they inherited (e) from their father and he is Ee, the possible colors and genotypes would be:

Bay: Aa
Brown: Ata
Black: aa

If the foal is Bay (Aa): Ryuu's mare has to carry the genes for Bay, since they inherited (A) from her:

    A          -
a   Aa        -a
a   Aa        -a

If the foal is Brown (Ata): Ryuu's mare can be Bay (AAt) or Brown (AtAt) or (Ata). Why? These are the three potential genotypes (remember Zuberi is on the side):

    A          At
a   Aa        Ata
a   Aa        Ata

    At          At
a   Ata        Ata
a   Ata        Ata

    At          a
a   Ata        aa
a   Ata        aa

If the foal is Black (aa): Ryuu's mare can be (Aa) Bay, (Ata) Brown, or (aa) Black. Remember that Black is recessive to Brown and Bay. You can even look above to see how this aa would be inherited.

[PonyMama]

*Lost in "a" "A" and "At"'s*

[Keilin Alyr]

First off, the genetics link: http://stable.colbyforkicks.com/genetics.html

It's really simple, PM. Think of genetics as a set of two-piece puzzles. The mother has one piece of the puzzle, the father has the second piece. The completed puzzle is the baby.

Those letters are pieces of a genetic code puzzle. In this case, what color the baby is going to be. A is Bay, At is Brown, a is Black.

However, each baby will have a genetic piece from its mother and its father. That's where the dominant and recessive parts come into play. It's also why there are capital and lowercase letters.

If we look at Zuberi, his coloration is Black. A Black (a) piece from his mother and a Black (a) piece from his father. Put them together, and he is (aa) Black.  

If we look at Morcha, her coloration is Bay. I know she has a (A) piece from one of her parents. I don't know the other piece. She could be AA (both parents gave Bay), AAt (one parent gave Bay, one parent gave Brown), or Aa (one parent gave Bay, one parent gave Black).

I like to write this as (A-). Some people will write this as (A?). It just means I know she is Bay, but I don't know what the second genetic piece is.

I could find out by breeding her to Zuberi, because he can only give his foals Black, the (a) piece. That's where the Square comes into play. Let's pretend Morcha received a Brown piece from her other parent:

    A         At
a   Aa       Ata
a   Aa       Ata

The Aa foals received Bay (A) from their mother and Black (a) from their father. They will look Bay. The Ata foals received a hidden Brown (At) from their mother (which she inherited from her parent) and Black (a) from their father. They will look Brown.

I hope this makes things a bit more clear. But if not, just let me know what's still confusing. I'm trying here. XD

[PonyMama]

Yeah well see my problem is when you have one black mom and one black dad and you get a brown baby.  I can't figure those out.  I have tried and had people explain this to me lots, and I am not getting it

[Keilin Alyr]

Could you show me an example where this happened? I'm curious to see if I can explain. =)

[XLostxDestinyX]

*giggling* amazingly enough i am starting to understand just by reading, and i have no stable horses and only one Quinsta ^.^
I think the explanations are helpful thou, ty! And I understand about getting confused too, i re-read twice <3

[PonyMama]

Had to track it down but I did find it



I was guessing a black tobiano, however this is what I got

Chestnut Tobiano

(I keep thinking she was brown)

[PonyMama]

I have had it explained to me, but still I can not figure out how to see it in the genes or figure it out on my own, since I cannot pull chestnut out fo black no matter what I do XD

[Keilin Alyr]

Ah, she's Chestnut, not Brown. This is where the rest of the puzzle pieces come into play. =)

A, At, and a are known as the Agouti genes, where the black pigment goes. But remember how I said Chestnut masks those colors?

Chestnut is dependent on E and e, which are known as the Extension genes, whether or not black pigment will even show up in a horse. Most horses will be EE or Ee, which means they'll show their true colors. An ee horse will have their color masked and show up Chestnut.

Your baby's genetic code will have aa ((a) from the mother, (a) from the father), so she is technically Black. But she also inherited ee, both pieces of which were hidden in her parents. When their two recessive pieces combined, they show up as a Chestnut foal.

This also means Kayode and Talha both have Ee in their genetic code.

Congrats on the little foal, by the way. She is a lovely little surprise. =D

[Ryuukokoro]

Wow you've typed so much, Keilin! 0_0 Thank you for the effort!!

I do understand a lot more now. I had no idea chestnut was a masking color that could hide other colors underneath it lol. And now those punnet squares make sense to me, at least a little!

So two more questions, if possible. How does the Sabino Overo come into play? I know I can't breed her to another Overo because I'd have the possibility of a dead foal, but what if I bred her to a splash?

and random question: is it possible to have a black foal with flaxen hair? 0.o Or do the genes cancel each other out somehow? Never heard of a horse like that before...

[PonyMama]

Glad you got it Ryuu

I is still *Lost*

[Keilin Alyr]

I'm glad I'm helping out people, even if it's only a little. I'm having fun figuring this all out as I go along. =D

Overo comes in three varieties at both the Stable and in Quinsta: Frame, Sabino, and Splash. They're all genetic variations of the same pattern though. So breeding her to Lannein still carries the risk of their foals inheriting OO and not surviving.

All Overo horses will have Oo in their genetics, as OO is the fatal combination. Frame Overos will be (Oo PP), Sabino Overos (Oo Pp), and Splash Overos (Oo pp). You could say (P) and (p) modify the overarching (O) Overo gene to make different styles of Overo. Also Frame, Sabino, and Splash only matter if the horse shows Overo.

As for the question about Flaxen, I think it's supposed to be intrinsically linked to the Chestnut gene. A non-Chestnut horse can theoretically carry (ff), but it's just hidden unless the paired Chestnut gene is present.

It's kind of like the patterns of Overo above. Or how Fleabitten will only show up on Gray horses and the Spotted patterns will only show up if the horse is Appaloosa.

[Ryuukokoro]

Ohhh! haha from now on I"m just going to say in my head that Overo is another word for Paint. That will make much more sense to me. XD

So breeding a paint with a paint is a possible dangerous combo. *nod* I will remember.

Thank you for all your help! ^_^ I now have to decide who I will ask to breed her with to figure out some genes bwa ha ha.

[Keilin Alyr]

Makes PI a funny place, doesn't it? XD

Though I hate to make things even more complicated for you, but there is another paint-like gene: Tobiano. It doesn't show up as any fun variations though, just streaks of paint on the legs and across the back. I guess you could consider Tobiano vertical paint, Overo different styles of horizontal paint. =)

Personally, of all the Clydesdale studs available, I'd go with Zuberi. Rising Sun will only produce Chestnut foals with your girl, Leafy's Bay wouldn't really answer any questions, and the other Overos are too risky. With Zuberi you know what the foal is inheriting from him, at least in the Agouti gene.

[Ryuukokoro]

Oh yeah! I heard Tobiano before!

So is it okay to breed Tobiano and Overo together?



I agree, will have to go ask PM if she minds her boy being a stud. Otherwise I'll use Breeder's Choice. ^^

[red_uni387]

Though I hate to make things even more complicated for you, but there is another paint-like gene: Tobiano. It doesn't show up as any fun variations though, just streaks of paint on the legs and across the back. I guess you could consider Tobiano vertical paint, Overo different styles of horizontal paint. =)

No 'official' variation, but there's plenty of variation in tobianos! Just take a look at all the tobiano quinsta out there

[Keilin Alyr]

No 'official' variation, but there's plenty of variation in tobianos! Just take a look at all the tobiano quinsta out there

Very true, very true! It's part of what makes the Quin so much fun. =D

And Ryuu: I've seen a Tobiano Splash Overo, so I'm pretty sure Tobiano and Overo can breed together without trouble. I imagine most of the resulting foals would be predominantly white. Barathon certainly is. =)

Also, I'd love to see the foal she has if you do end up breeding her to Zuberi. I'm really curious now as to what her coloration is under that chestnut.

[PonyMama]

if you wish to use Zuberi I would not mind at all

[Ryuukokoro]

Coooooool! ^_^ Looks like I have my pairing this breeding season then! Whee!